Transcript 

How People Pleasing Keeps Us Sick (and what to do about it!)

Michelle Shapiro [00:00:00]:

Reformed people pleasers Nikki Parlitsis and Michelle Shapiro bring this episode to you today to talk about how people pleasing affects our health and how setting appropriate boundaries, getting to know yourself, and understanding what you need are probably the most important features for your health.

Nicki Parlitsis [00:01:31]:
We'll talk about what people pleasing even is. Why do we become people pleasers? Why do we develop these tendencies? What the risks are or the negative impacts that we experience both physically and emotionally when it comes to people pleasing? But then most importantly, what do we do to feel our best and prioritize our health and wellness in the setting of a history of people pleasing and shift that into prioritizing our own self.

We are both working on people pleasing as it relates to food and our health

Michelle Shapiro [00:01:59]:
We can't wait to see you in there. I'm going to tell you this is already a hypocritical episode because Nikki and I are reforming or reformed people pleasers. But we are going to talk in this episode about how people pleasing can actually affect how we feel and our health. But we are both working on it. Would you agree, Nikki?

Nicki Parlitsis [00:02:28]:
I would say it's something that's a constant work in progress, especially if there are certain tendencies that you've had since childhood. I think it's kind of a myth that you hit this point in your healing journey where you're like, cool, my relationship with food is just permanently good and I'm no longer ever a people pleaser. What it is is just constant self regulation and noticing. Am I falling into the tendencies that I've had for quite some time. If I am, how can I reroute and regulate myself so that that doesn't happen again? It's just more of like a state of awareness, acceptance also, but giving yourself that grace, because it is kind of a work in progress. Always.

What is people pleasing?

Michelle Shapiro [00:03:14]:
Totally. When we're talking about people pleasing, what we are talking about is essentially putting the needs of other people before yourself or to do things that probably make you feel internally uncomfortable. To evade conflict and confrontation. Do you have added definitions that I'm missing? Nikki, for people, please ask.

Nicki Parlitsis [00:03:36]:
Yeah. So our fabulous RD, Sarah, came up with some research for us, and it was interesting because there's an actual term, it's called sociotrophy. So that's a that clinical term for people pleasing. And what I thought was really interesting was it this tendency to place an inordinate value on relationships over personal independence in response to the loss of relationships or conflict. So it also stems from that fear that if I express a boundary, will I cause a conflict? Will I lose this person? We can think about it. In romantic relationships, people tend to notice it a little bit more. And so it is that overemphasis of interpersonal relationships. So the relationships that you have with those around you, and an underemphasis on intrapersonal connection, meaning what you have with yourself.

Nicki Parlitsis [00:04:27]:
We're not saying to be selfish, but there is a healthy state. Is this balance between the two and not neglecting yourself or your relationships with other people?

Michelle Shapiro [00:04:36]:
I do. On a non scientific note, just from an observational note, I do find that people who are more selfish tend to be healthier and suffering less. So there are probably protective elements to being selfish. But I think all great health changes have to come from focus on self. That doesn't mean being cruel or ungenerous to others also. So why do we develop what would look like people pleasing tendencies and what do they actually look like in real life? So an example of people pleasing when it comes to our context is we're not talking as psychologists, of course, we're talking as dietitians is. If you were to go to an event knowing that you have some level of gluten sensitivity or intolerance, and someone's offering you food and you feel guilty, say no to the food and you eat it anyway, and then experience symptoms later on, it could be something like even advocating for what you need in your health in a doctor's office, assuming that a doctor is more of an expert on your body than you, and not being able to express yourself in a doctor's appointment to just, you know, avoid any conflict. Nikki, when it comes to our health, what other examples of people pleasing do you see often?

What examples of people pleasing are often seen?

Nicki Parlitsis [00:05:51]:
I noticed this a lot with. Just because of the season, we're filming this. It's summer right now, nearing the end of the summer, very unfortunately. So I'm noticing it with a lot of my weight loss clients as well, in the sense that, of course, there's moments where you're on a weight loss journey and there's some food that you really want to indulge in, and you're like, yeah, this is something that I can fit into my day in a way that doesn't affect my goals. But what I hear is often I was at this work event or I was at this barbecue or this party, and I didn't even want dessert when it came out. I didn't want a dinner roll. Like, I didn't want that thing that my great aunt made, but I felt that it would be more uncomfortable for me to say no. And I ended up saying yes, and I felt like crap afterward.

Michelle Shapiro [00:06:38]:
I think we've talked before on the podcast, certainly, about kind of that, like, internal family systems model where you're interacting with the different voices in your head. I think there is a people pleasing voice in our head. It's one of the different voices, and those voices interact with each other. But there's definitely voices that might be in conflict saying, you shouldn't eat that because, you know, your health depends on it. And then maybe another voice comes out and says, oh, just eat it, because it'll make everyone happy. And then another voice comes out and is like, you have to eat it to make everyone happy. So I think this is also a really important point, is that there's probably this internal conversation happening quite a bit when it comes to people pleasing. And the people pleasing voice is usually that, like, final voice that just, like, just do it and make them happy.

Michelle Shapiro [00:07:20]:
Don't worry about yourself. In the context of, wait. I would be remiss if I didn't bring up the fact that I found for myself personally when living in a larger body. I felt like I. And I can't speak for everyone, but I have had clients tell me this experience before, that just the existence of being in a larger body and living inside of one can make us feel like we owe something to the world and feel like we have to apologize for things more, that there's something offensive to the world about being in a larger body. I obviously believe that is categorically horrible and should not exist. But there is something about a lot of the work I do with clients who are working on losing a larger amount of weight, they do have this tendency to people, please, maybe a little bit more, because, I don't know, I felt like my body was in conflict with the world. The existence of me inside of my body was in conflict with the world.

Michelle Shapiro [00:08:15]:
So that is definitely something I have seen. And so a lot of the work that we might do with clients is about reclaiming your power and knowing that you are always entitled to eat or not eat what you want to. You are always entitled to live in a way that's authentic to you. So I think a lot of the work around people pleasing comes from self advocacy, but also really knowing yourself and owning who you are, no matter where your health is.

Nicki Parlitsis [00:08:43]:
One thing that I thought of that while you were saying that we didn't actually touch on that is also a component of people pleasing, is. And this is sometimes what it can stem from in childhood, but this hyper vigilance around what others are thinking and feeling. And the reason I thought of that was because I've heard from many clients that are in larger bodies that there is this hyper vigilance around. Yeah, I feel like it's a lose lose for me. I feel like if I'm having dessert, then people are like, oh, there she goes, having dessert. Because I feel like people are looking at me. But if I have something like, let's say I'm eating chicken and vegetables, then I feel like people are looking and thinking something about how I'm in a larger body, but I'm eating chicken and vegetables. So.

Nicki Parlitsis [00:09:28]:
And we can't also sit here and pretend like those thoughts aren't existing in other people. There are biases. There are all these things that are happening around us. And so that's kind of compounded by the fact that maybe this person has. Is more aware of what's happening around them or what others are thinking and feeling around them. And this goes for, honestly, anyone in larger body, smaller body, anything, that when you are a people pleaser, you are more empathetic. Usually you are more attuned to what other people are thinking or feeling. And so it kind of makes that connection with yourself.

Nicki Parlitsis [00:10:07]:
It kind of crowds it out. It's harder to listen to because you are so focused on those around you.

Michelle Shapiro [00:10:13]:
And also, if you grow up in any sort of marginalized group or body who's been marginalized from a community standpoint, you probably have had to, from a safety standpoint, be hypervigilant. In the past. So that pattern of staying hyper vigilant may stay on. And then because, again, you feel, I don't know, it's like a body that feels like it's at conflict already. Your goal is to minimize any discomfort you're experiencing, because really, the reason we people please, and often the people who people please, have the stigma of being overly generous. But I'm going to say that is part of it. And then part of it is also, it's really about minimizing discomfort and creating safety where safety doesn't feel like it's there. A lot of the reason why I believe that many of our clients end up having people pleasing tendencies is because of some environment at home where maybe there was a family member who had more erratic emotions.

Michelle Shapiro [00:11:10]:
And the goal would be to, again, minimize conflict in whatever way possible. What? And when we were researching this, Nikki, what else did we come up with as some reasons why people ended up having a tendency towards people pleasing?

Why do people have a tendency towards people pleasing?

Nicki Parlitsis [00:11:22]:
So usually stemming from childhood, there is either poor self esteem. So that would be seeking, because it's harder to access this internal validation. So this sense of, like, I did a good job and I'm proud of myself and I don't care what anyone else thinks about it, that that makes me feel confident. That's someone who has high self esteem. But if we have poor self esteem, then we need to have our teacher telling us, like, you got to a again on that test, you're amazing. Or our parent was like, oh, you follow the rules. Amazing. Like, we need that external validation.

Nicki Parlitsis [00:11:58]:
There's also either some type of abusive relationship dynamic where you start to learn, oh, if I can just be agreeable and not cause any conflict, maybe like that feeling of walking on eggshells, then maybe this person doesn't lash out at me or I experience less abuse because I am more agreeable. So that becomes a tendency that's very ingrained. And then there's also this kind of tied to that, this fear of abandonment from others. So that could be that if I am creating a positive environment for everyone around me, that they will like me more or they won't leave me or, you know, they'll have a positive view of me in their mind. And so then I feel safe and loved because I am hyper aware of this other person.

Michelle Shapiro [00:12:49]:
So a lot of it is about, like you said in the beginning, by definition, a lot of it is about sourcing esteem or sourcing validation from other people through minimizing conflict.

Nicki Parlitsis [00:13:01]:
So that is really the goal of.

Michelle Shapiro [00:13:02]:
It, is to let me feel good about me because other people feel good about me. So the antidote would be, like, on a very high level, obviously, knowing that no matter how you are in a certain situation, that if you don't eat the piece of cake that someone offers you, that's going to make you sick, you're still good, you're still moral, you're still awesome. And that who you are is not tied into accepting what other people throw at you, essentially.

Having the tools to learn and identify how it is affecting you

Nicki Parlitsis [00:13:26]:
And I think part of the process of learning how this is affecting you and being able to shift that course in the future is starting to notice again, like, how is this actually affecting me? I think that a lot of the time, as a people pleaser, we're honestly so focused on those around us that we might not even understand that our chronic illness or our digestive issues or our whatever, whatever negative things that are stress and anxiety, frustration, irritability, that we might not even attribute those things to the behavior of people pleasing because we're so attuned to others, but less attuned to ourself. So part of that is first looking inward, even if we're not changing it. Like, let's say we're still doing what we think others want us to do. How do we feel after that? Because we might actually be more concerned with other people going home from the party thinking, oh, Nikki had my cake. And that really makes me happy. That is more important to us in the moment, genuinely, than us feeling like crap for a day or two afterward, whether it's chronic illness or whatever you're experiencing. So first it's noticing, how is this affecting me? And then that kind of gives you the impetus to change. Otherwise, you don't really feel a need.

Michelle Shapiro [00:14:49]:
You know, it's so funny as we're saying this, I'm feeling so much guilt, which is really funny about how I was, like, making sure that you were eating at the party the other night, and it was, like, really late for both of us to be eating. Like, we don't eat that late usually. Like, that's not our vibe. And I was like, Nikki, are you okay?

Nicki Parlitsis [00:15:05]:
Are you eating?

Michelle Shapiro [00:15:05]:
And I was doing the thing that we're talking about. So I'm apologizing to you for that.

Nicki Parlitsis [00:15:10]:
What's cool awesome about that interaction is, well, two things. It's a. That I felt comfortable with you to be like, no, my stomach hurts. Like, I can't relate with that thing. But also, like, honestly, to, like, even, like, as soon as two years ago, I feel like I would have been like, oh, okay, maybe I should have something, you know, so it's like there are moments and that's why in client sessions we talk a lot about, like, your wins from the past couple weeks, because something like that, for someone who has a tendency to people, please. But to be able to be like, oh, no, I'm actually not feeling great right now, I'll reassess in an hour or two. Like being able to even say that in a comfortable way, even if it's not comfortable right off the bat, that is a huge, huge win.

Michelle Shapiro [00:15:53]:
Absolutely. I also, just as a practitioner, we could talk about as a client how it's important to work on people pleasing tendencies. And definitely as a practitioner too. You and I, Nikki, from when we first started our careers till now, we've really worked on it. You know, it takes time to, like, develop your craft and develop how you can best support people. But certainly I think in the beginning of my career ten years ago, was much more likely to coddle people and much more likely to be like, what can I do? Oh, my goodness, what's going on? How can I help you? Where by now I have the same feeling of what can I do? How can I help you? But if it's not something that's going to help them, like, you know, for instance, if someone really wants to focus on weight loss, I'm not going to prioritize their, oh, you have to work in your relationship with food if that's not their primary focus. I'm really focused now on what is that client asking for over how badly I want them to feel better in the moment and how much I want to take away any pain that they're having. I'm looking at that in a long term standpoint.

Michelle Shapiro [00:16:52]:
So it's also really important from a practitioner. End, what I wanted to also touch on is that, again, it keeps in my head coming back to, do you have the tools to touch in with self? Do you have the tools to comfort self? And can we tolerate the discomfort of not appearing right in a certain situation? And I think this, you know, all of this conversation, definitely around weight, but really also around chronic illness, I think is so, so important, especially when it's like the highly sensitive bodied crew who we work with so closely. Because, you know, so one thing I've always been good at outside of people, please. Like, my people pleasing tendencies, which have extended very, very far in my life and wide, is I'm always good at not caring if I look silly. Like, if I need to wear a neck brace in public, if I need to wear compression socks. I'm like, I look adorable. I'm like, I don't care about. You know, I don't.

Michelle Shapiro [00:17:47]:
But I am good at not caring about how other people's opinions of me change their perception of me, right. And change my perception of self, because I'm very solid in who I am in that way, for sure. I think that this is something we work on a lot with clients, is just like, how do we be kind of, if we have to be the weird person at the party who is wearing compression socks and drinking an electrolyte pack? Like, how do we allow ourselves to do that? And when we're not feeling, when we're already not feeling good, that's a piece of the conversation I know I want to get to today. And another term that I'm going to bring up is just doing emotional labor. So historically, both you and I, Nikki, if we are in a social situation, we are far more concerned about how other people are feeling. When I actually had this most recent medical crisis for myself, I could not go to a party and stand for 10 hours and talk to every single person there and make sure every single person was comfortable, because when I would leave the party, I would feel physically drained. Because there's doing physical labor in life, and you can also be doing emotional labor of carrying other people's conversations and making sure every single person in the situation is comfortable and not knowing our own limits around that. I have favored, especially in social situations, other people's comfort over my own forever.

Michelle Shapiro [00:19:12]:
But I got to a point where my body didn't let me do that anymore. Same thing with you. You're like, no, you know what? My stomach's going to hurt more if I eat something right now that my body's not going to tolerate well. So it's also about knowing, what do we need to carry in ways of these social situations. The craziest thing in the world is that if you ask me, what is the hardest thing for someone in a highly sensitive body, like, what is the hardest thing they can possibly do? I would say going out to dinner, first of all, because your neck is moving all the time, you're nodding, you're talking, and you are so engaged that it is very draining on the body. So when people start to kind of realize that going out to dinner might be one of the hardest things I can possibly do in a highly sensitive body, there's a lot of resistance to that idea, obviously, and people can start to get uncomfortable with how they're feeling about that and have definitely expressed to me, like, I don't understand why I'm so not normal, that these situations are okay for everyone else, but this is hard for me. I'm getting worse. Michelle, what's going on?

Michelle Shapiro [00:20:13]:
Michelle?

Michelle Shapiro [00:20:13]:
Why did I feel so sick after dinner? And I'm like, well, the lights, the neck movements, the emotional labor, engaging with every single other person, holding on to holding space for them, but not for yourself. And we also just don't at all check in with ourselves in those situations. So I think part of breaking this pattern is knowing what are my limits from a physical standpoint? What are my limits from an emotional standpoint, and how do I honor those limits?

Knowing where your boundary is and what your limits are

Nicki Parlitsis [00:20:37]:
You using the word limits actually brings me to another concept, because I was going to when you said, what's the hardest thing for someone in a highly sensitive body? And agreed with the going out to dinner. But my first thought was, like, setting boundaries. Because there's, first of all, there's knowing what your boundary even is. Because I think that limit, like, before us sometimes telling clients, like, is that hard for you going out? Some people don't even, like, we're just so focused on the thoughts of everyone else around us that we might not even notice. Like, oh, yeah, I do feel really crappy after I go out to dinner with other people, or I'm at a party with a bunch of people that are. I'm constantly trying to entertain or talking the whole time. So first it's even knowing what are my limits? Like, when do I actually feel not so good? And then how do I communicate that or communicate around that to others when I either can't go or can't engage in conversation? Or maybe I can go, but I have to leave at x time no matter what and how, no matter how long anyone else is staying. One example that I'm thinking of, because I think sometimes, at least for me, I always thought it was related to, like, a negative relationship or someone that is, like, a negative force around you.

Nicki Parlitsis [00:21:55]:
But the first time I really made the connection was, I love my mom to death. She's, like, one of my best friends. We talk a lot, like, hours on end. But I noticed that whenever I would go home, I would be on this long train ride. It was usually after a day of working, and then I'd get home really late, and sometimes we'd be talking till, like, 1130 at night. And I'm like, this was really enjoyable for the first hour and a half, but I'm starting to notice, like, my body's getting really tired. I'm starting to feel like I'm tensing up, like, every muscle in my body, and I can't explain why it's happening. And my mouth is getting really dry, I'm starting to get a headache.

Nicki Parlitsis [00:22:33]:
And I was like, oh, I've just hit my social capacity. Even if it is someone that I love and have a great time with, you can still hit your cap with those people, too. So it's first noticing, like, oh, I'm feeling this weird thing in my body, but I notice it's every time I come home, but it's usually pretty late at night. And then you start to notice, oh, okay. So then setting that boundary in the sense of we're not setting boundaries doesn't even have to be a negative experience. Like, we don't have to tell people, like, I can't spend time with you anymore. You know what I mean? Like, that's sometimes what it feels like in our head. But even just saying something like, oh, you know, I actually am really tired.

Nicki Parlitsis [00:23:12]:
I'd love to spend the next 30 minutes with you, but after that, I just need to get some rest and we'll talk in the morning.

Michelle Shapiro [00:23:17]:
Absolutely. I think there's something really important within what you're saying there, too, because you could not have a better relationship with your mom. It's not even the people who we have, like you said, negative relationships with, it's, we still have limits with people we have positive relationships with because we don't have unlimited infinite energy and capacity. And when we're at a point where we aren't feeling well, that emotional labor capacity and physical labor capacity is going to go down. So, whereby if you're in a place where you feel really good, you might be able to do a lot of stuff. If you're not feeling good, you're going to be able to do less. So you have two options, which is kind of gently set those boundaries or, well, first we have to find out if you're not feeling well from something. Right.

Michelle Shapiro [00:24:00]:
So that would be, I guess the first step in all this is figure out what's not making you feel well. It probably took time for you to realize, oh, if I'm on the phone for 3 hours, I don't feel awesome after being on the phone for 3 hours, start noticing what patterns relate to what symptoms and kind of create that kind of system for yourself to see what's making me not feel well. So that would be the first step in assessing people pleasing and assessing where you need to set those boundaries. And then I would start looking at is the person that I'm setting boundaries with, is there the best way that I can set boundaries with them? You know, there are certain people who have more direct approach. You have a very close relationship with your mom. I love that Kathy's the center of this episode live for her. You could just easily say to her, you know, ma, I don't feel great after we talk on the phone for so many hours. Let's just do this exact same thing tomorrow.

Michelle Shapiro [00:24:44]:
Let's break it up and two parts, as opposed to doing a three hour conversation. So I think if it was someone that you're not as close with, you don't have to set also these hard and fast boundaries with people. If it's not comfortable or if you don't know them, it can also just be, I'm checking in with myself. I noticed this. Let me move myself out of the situation. You are not a tool for someone else's comfort or for someone else to dump on. And anyone listening to this, again, even if it's a positive thing, but the energy is too much for you, you do not have to absorb that, especially if you're sponge like Nikki and I are. It is not your responsibility to absorb that energy.

Knowing how you can recover

Michelle Shapiro [00:25:23]:
What I've noticed over time, Nikki, is that, like, I would say, like, there's a healing ratio where, you know, it used to be that if I had one event that was a five hour event, I needed 10 hours the next day to recover. When I was sick, right? When I really went, when I had the neck injury and everything like that, I was like, all right, this is like a one to one healing ratio. At least now I could do three or four events in a row, but then you got to give me, like, a day or so to recuperate. So it's also about knowing how much are we going to need to recover from those things. This is really hard for people to accept.

Nicki Parlitsis [00:25:56]:
So I think part of that is also knowing, how do I recover? Because we could have. I had this conversation with a client recently that, you know, you could have four days to recover, but if you're not doing the things that are actually restorative during that time, then you don't just need time. You have to be investing that energy back into yourself to have the capacity to give later on. And I know we use the bucket theory all the time, feeling like, when usually we're going into, like, a flare, whether it's digestive or I autoimmune or whatever our flare is, like, our symptoms are flaring up. Typically, that's when our bucket is, like, at capacity or overflowing, but we forget that that bucket is slowly filling over time. And a lot of times we attribute it to just. Or I have. A lot of my clients will initially think that it's always the food.

Nicki Parlitsis [00:26:51]:
It's like, always this one ingredient, or it's always this one thing that I ate. But we forget that there's a lot that. And that enters that bucket that contributes to our burnout. And that could be emotional. It could be energetic. It could be just life stress. It could be those around you having a. Like, you might.

Nicki Parlitsis [00:27:12]:
If you're empathetic and your partner had a bad day, even if they're not emotionally dumping on you, they just don't feel well, and you're just seeing them not feel well, that could be contributing to your depletion. So we need the things that are restorative to kind of alleviate. I talk about it as, like, poking holes in the bottom of the bucket and, like, releasing the pressure. We need those things. Whether it's like a moment of joy or, you know, actually resting versus scrolling on social media, we need those things. Especially the sicker we are, the more of those we need in order to replenish and have the energy to give at that party or at that dinner. So that's really equally as important as knowing when to stop. It's also knowing when to recoup.

Michelle Shapiro [00:27:59]:
Absolutely. And how to recover. I think a lot of us struggle with taking care of ourselves. Right. We find it easier to take care of other people and find out what they need. But especially if you're a people pleaser, you're not potentially going to or have the tendency to people, please, I don't know if I want to use it as a label. You may have more cues for other people's comfort than your own and more cues for other people's pain than your own, and may have maybe kind of neglected that part of yourself that tells you, this is what I need or this is what I don't. I have always believed and have seen with clients that if you do not do what your body tells you to do, your body will force you to stop.

Michelle Shapiro [00:28:38]:
So that's when something that starts as a symptom becomes kind of like a crisis in our health. So either way, the people pleasing tendencies are going to kind of catch you in some way or another. So it's just important to in whatever way you can intervene. But I think what you get from it is not only better health outcomes, but better confidence in kind of all areas of your life. This is something that I don't. Again, I can't speak to a study on it, but I can tell you, after working with thousands of clients over the years, and, Nikki, I know that you've had this experience, too. A lot of clients will come to us as people who have a lot of people pleasing tendencies and may or may not be in coercive relationships or dominating relationships. Some of them are in abusive relationships.

Michelle Shapiro [00:29:21]:
And they're also working with a therapist, of course, at the same time as us. And we find that once they start working on their health and taking things for themselves, that those situations, it could even be with, like, a coercive boss. It could even be with a force, you know, a negative or dominant force in any area of their life. Those things suddenly start to shift. Like, they kind of just come to session one day and they're like, hey, I broke up with this partner, or I quit my job in whatever way. Because the second that we start advocating for ourselves, it kind of is contagious the rest of our lives and our body and our health. So it could be something really small, like, I'm not going to eat the cake at the party because I'm trying to not eat gluten because it doesn't make me feel awesome. And that could avalanche in a really beautiful way.

Practice setting boundaries

Nicki Parlitsis [00:30:03]:
I've also seen it in the opposite way. Like, I've had clients where it's harder to start with having that conversation at the party and turning away something that won't make them feel good. And we'll literally start with, like, okay, so I know that you're feeling overwhelmed at work. Can we talk to your boss? Is there a coworker that we can talk to about managing your caseload, about prioritizing ending at a certain time? Sometimes clients will start there and then that's like a practice in setting because we think about it, no matter what the boundary is. Setting a boundary is the skill. And like any skill, it comes with practice and with time. So if there's an area of your life that will either be the most impactful or feel like the easiest place to start practicing with boundaries there, maybe it is practicing with a friend that you really feel safe with. You know, like, let's say you're on the phone with them and it's going too long.

Nicki Parlitsis [00:30:59]:
Starting there can have an avalanche toward the food and the nutrition component, too, because you've already practiced that and it feels a little bit safer to you.

Michelle Shapiro [00:31:08]:
This is so true for both of us, I think. Right, because where did both of us start was with like our mothers and mother in laws because it's like we. We feel so safe to set boundaries because we know that we're unconditionally loved in those situations. So. Right. You have to start in the place that feels safest. And I also think it doesn't have to be so serious to set boundaries. Again, I think you have to do it in your own way because if you do have people pleasing tendencies, again, you are using a protective mechanism to help yourself.

Michelle Shapiro [00:31:42]:
So eliminating that protective mechanism can be very challenging, especially in a health context. But when it comes to, I think, a strategy that works very well is just embracing your kind of inner weird. Embracing the parts of yourself that are different, that or you feel like are different than other people. I think that they're approaching things weirdly is more effective. Like, I think then just being very straightforward and hard with boundaries. Because I think we might have to play a little bit like, you won't believe this, but if I sit at dinner for 3 hours, I'm gonna be dizzy for two days. Like, I know that's so weird, but that is literally what's going to happen. So I'm gonna just get up periodically throughout dinner.

Michelle Shapiro [00:32:26]:
I am the. Again, I'm the first person who will stand up in the middle of the dinner and just be like, I have to get circulation to my legs. Like, we've been sitting for so many hours. I have to move. But there's ways we can do it while being a little bit cheeky instead of being so maybe direct. And I think that that's completely fine too. So just a little bit of a recap of what we talked about. I think the most important thing first, when it comes to people pleasing your health, is first identify what social situations, what interpersonal situations are making you feel sick in some ways.

Michelle Shapiro [00:32:57]:
And then you can start to lay out, what do I need to feel better? Lay out a recovery plan. And then you can start sampling and trying strategies if you kind of find those black and white rules. Like for myself, there's no situation where I'm going to eat gluten. It's just. That's my thing for you, Nikki. Now you're starting to create this black and white rule that, like, if my stomach hurts, I'm not going to put more food into it late at night. That's going to make me feel sick. I also will bring compression socks with me.

Michelle Shapiro [00:33:26]:
I don't care what I'm wearing. I will find a way to put compression socks underneath my outfit. You have to make those non negotiables for yourself. But in order to do that, you first have to decide what is making me sick in the first place. What postural things, energetic things? Where am I doing a lot of emotional labor? How are different people making me feel? And then I would also start thinking about what different voices are happening in your head. How are those voices interacting around these things? And get to know that people pleasing, conflict averse voice a little bit with absolute non judgment.

Nicki Parlitsis [00:33:59]:
I look at it as all of those things, the people talking a lot around you or a loud environment, like, they make. They, like, sway us. Like, they kind of push us a little bit off balance. The more firmly we're planted in the ground and we're grounded into ourself, the less of an impact those things don't push us over. But if we're not grounded, one of those things might completely blow us away. So those anchors, like, knowing I I have to eat XYZ or I need to bring my electrolyte packet out with me, or I really know I have to go to bed at x time. Those are. And most people don't have that many, to be honest.

Nicki Parlitsis [00:34:38]:
Like, I mean, obviously, the sicker we are, the more we might have. And those might reduce with time as we heal, but they might just really be, like, four or five things that, you know, internally you have to abide by for now. They might change with time, and then that feels a little bit. And then again, like you said, we don't have to be so serious about these things. Like, sometimes all my friends know, like, when we're out, Nikki's got a protein. I will go to a club with a protein bar in my bag, because I know if I'm hungry, I don't care. Like, I will eat the protein bar. Like, I'm gonna eat it at a bar.

Embrace your uniqueness

Nicki Parlitsis [00:35:13]:
I don't care. So. But now it's, like, a funny thing. It could be something that I'm like, oh, my God, I'm so embarrassed. This makes me feel uncomfortable, and then I feel worse about it. But when we know ourselves very firmly and intimately and we're very comfortable, we start to become very comfortable with who we are, and we're all so different. Everyone has different needs and different anchors. When we become more accepting of ourselves, we start to kind of also love those things about ourself.

Nicki Parlitsis [00:35:43]:
It becomes just. That's what makes you you. Like, you wouldn't be you without those things. And then that's when we start to embrace our uniqueness. Because another thing that I think we seek in people pleasing is to be accepted. And so we kind of want to fit into a mold of what we think other people will like. But if you think about the people who've made the biggest impact on your life, or when you leave a party and you're like, I love that person. They're usually not like everyone else.

Nicki Parlitsis [00:36:09]:
That's what makes them so great. So the people that are just the same as everyone, they kind of just blend in like. So those, if we start to embrace the things that make us unique, even if that is some weird food tendency or whatever it is, then we start to accept it and maybe even love it about ourselves.

Michelle Shapiro [00:36:30]:
It's definitely what would pull me to any person is quirkiness and uniqueness and self assurance and the person who feels like they are the most them. There's nothing about someone I wouldn't like if it's true to them. And I completely agree with you. I immediately started taking a video of you when you took the protein bar out at the emo concert because I was like, this is my favorite thing about you. This is the best I had. I had to wear tights also because I wanted to have some compression. I'm wearing tights. Nikki's pulling out the protein bars.

Michelle Shapiro [00:37:01]:
It's lovable. I have to be honest. It's totally lovable. And I think also there's a way to do that, right? It's different. Also, if people feel like you're in hiding, people are going to feel. Because people pleasing is a very valid self preservation mechanism. It does create less conflict. It does make us feel a little bit more hidden.

People pleasing can create a lack of self trust

Michelle Shapiro [00:37:20]:
It does make you probably more likeable to some people because you're more amenable to what other people want to some types of people. Again, that is definitely more appealing. But people pleasing, when it goes unchecked, does create chronic health issues and it does create a lack of self trust, I think is another piece of this too, because your body starts to not believe that you'll put your body first before the comfort of someone else. So there is an inherent discomfort of accepting that some people are going to think it's cool that you take a protein bar out, some people are going to think it's cool that I'm wearing tights, and then some people are going to not think it's cool. And it doesn't really matter because we.

Nicki Parlitsis [00:38:01]:
Are who we are.

Michelle Shapiro [00:38:03]:
But that's really hard. That's really hard.

Nicki Parlitsis [00:38:04]:
Really hard. I think that's part of that journey where kind of like the end goal would be, oh, I don't even know if I want a lot of those people in my life. Like, the people who do make me feel like something is unacceptable about myself. I've noticed it in the dating world. Like, when you're dating people, if there's that feeling of like, oh, I want this person to like me. Is that kind of how you want to feel for the rest of your life? Probably nothing. Like, the most attractive thing is someone accepting you for the person that you are. And that's just one example, but I think that's the end goal, is being so, you know, accepting of yourself and really seeking to surround yourself with people who allow you and celebrate you being 100% you, but that just know it's okay.

Nicki Parlitsis [00:38:57]:
Like, that's not where you start. We sometimes just start with, like, spending a little bit time with ourselves. Sometimes I'll have people also, because I think you said earlier, one thing that people with these tendencies are really good at is being there for others and being very nurturing and caring toward others. So a good journaling practice sometimes could be also, you know, what are some of the things you do to make those around you feel loved? Is that your children? Maybe it's your friends. What are some of the actions that I do to make them feel loved? And then take a look at that list and see if you're doing any of those things for yourself. Because chances are maybe not. So then we can start to care for slowly care for ourselves in that same way that we're so good at caring for other people. And then that starts to build that self trust as well, and that connection with yourself, too.

Michelle Shapiro [00:39:48]:
And knowing, what do you need to recover from these things. It's also another practice that I've used before is just having people tap their heart and ask, what do I need? What do I need? And just repeatedly asking it and see what comes up, that can be really helpful, too. So it's about knowing where you are in your health. It's about knowing who you are in your health and your life. It's about knowing who's around you and how the situations we are in, the people we're around make us feel. Of course we have some control over how people make us feel, and we don't have some control over how people make us feel. It's about knowing not only where you're at in your health, but where you want to go in your health. And then it's about designing your life based on these things.

Why you can't always avoid your boundaries being pushed in life

Michelle Shapiro [00:40:31]:
And that's really, like, the core of people pleasing is what it is, is again, favoring how people feel about you over what you need to do for yourself. So if we flip it on its head, it's really about being unique and knowing who you are and knowing what you need. And those are very big challenges for people who have grown up in environments where they were caretaking people, especially when they were children, caretaking adults, acting like an adult because they had to, or in situations where they've been in marginalized bodies where they had to be hypervigilant and had to deflate conflict for safety reasons.

Nicki Parlitsis [00:41:10]:
And one thing I really want to call out, because I think sometimes people, whether it's listening to podcasts or reading health information online, there's this idea that the. That the end goal is to never be around someone that pushes your boundaries or never be in a state like, that's. None of us have that. Like, that's life is life. We're going to be in situations that are, you know, maybe we. There's someone that we have to have in our life and they push us to the edge and we just have to learn how to better manage it. So you will always be in these situations. But what we're saying is that when you are, when you have that connection and, you know, kind of where your boundaries are, it allows you to navigate these situations with more ease because these things will come up.

Nicki Parlitsis [00:41:57]:
And because I know sometimes that causes distress for some people of, like, I tried to avoid this thing and it happened anyway. We know our goal is to get better at navigating these things, preventing them when possible, but sometimes it's not possible, but when it's possible, removing those things from your life so that you do have more capacity for the things that are not possible to remove.

Michelle Shapiro [00:42:20]:
And then also adding in, like you said before, Nicki, energizing things. And there's people that I could literally talk to. I'm like, you, Nicki, I'm a phone talker. So I'm like, talking. We also just, like, on a work day, you know, if we have a non client day, like, we're just looking. I'm like, we just talked for 2 hours. Like, we gotta. Let's go do other stuff.

Michelle Shapiro [00:42:36]:
What are we doing? I'm definitely like a phone talker. And there's people who. Just. Our energy together revitalizes me. You are certainly one of those people. And then there's people who, for whatever reason, their energy can feel taxing onto me. And there's also people. It just depends on where I am, my health or you are that day.

Michelle Shapiro [00:42:56]:
Right. It just really depends on where we're at. We have to become really good at being detectives for ourselves and understanding what is affecting us. I think that's just a bigger picture of our health, too, is that we don't really believe that, like, not going on a walk affects our health. We don't really believe not getting sunlight affects our health. We don't really believe that the social connections affect our health, but they all really do. And just know also, if it, right now, if your healing ratio is you need to go out to dinner and it's 3 hours, and then you need to recover for two days, that's totally fine. That's where you are right now.

Michelle Shapiro [00:43:29]:
It's not permanent, but know where you are right now and know where you need to go. And I think that's so important.

Putting yourself first can also help you manage your health symptoms

Nicki Parlitsis [00:43:35]:
And one thing that I wanted to mention about study wise, because in the research that we've seen, because sometimes we can think, oh, my. Well, I'm in a highly sensitive body. I have all of these chronic issues. Like, I. I face a steeper climb than other people do. What's really interesting is that all of these things that we're talking about that are putting yourself first but also revitalizing you, they can also help you better manage or actually kind of reduce your symptoms. So in that Harvard happiness study, we've noticed that they followed in 1938, they started following two groups of men over, like, decades. And at first, they were trying.

Nicki Parlitsis [00:44:20]:
They were like, okay, yeah. People who drink less alcohol, smoke less cigarettes, like, they have more optimal health. Okay. Like, at the time, it was probably remarkable, but now we're like, surprise breasts. What's really interesting is that the most significant factor that is on top of anything else that they looked at, it could be alcohol, cigarettes, whatever it is. The most significant factor in determining happiness and health later on in life is having strong, supportive relationships. And I think about some of our grandparents where we're like, what? They're like, smoking cigarettes, drinking three glasses of wine a night, and they are, like, doing zumba at 85. Like, what's going on? They have.

Nicki Parlitsis [00:45:04]:
They probably get together with their friends multiple times a week. They might have really healthy, supportive relationships. So we can pretend like those things don't matter. Like, I need to focus so much on my health that I'm going to ignore all those social connections when actually the social connection, those positive social connections, will actually be one of the biggest things that relieves that pressure, restores our energy, and allows us to better hope and deal with whatever symptoms we're experiencing on this healing journey?

Understanding how the connections, both social and physical, make you feel

Michelle Shapiro [00:45:36]:
Absolutely. It's. And you know, there is so much about connection that's so interesting here when we're talking about people pleasing. So we really have to know how are these specific connections affecting us? How is the different conversations in our head when it comes to the people pleasing? Oh, I have to sit and talk to this person. This person needs me. That goes on in my head. I'm like, what if this person doesn't have a conversation with me and then they won't feel good after? Like, I am thinking about that other person so much more than thinking about myself. But understanding, are these connections positive social connections? Are they positive all the time, even when we're sick, or are they negative onto our health? They do have great impact onto our health.

Michelle Shapiro [00:46:21]:
And physically, what we're doing during those interactions may change too. Like sometimes I need to sit right. If you're at a party for 6 hours, you might need to sit and talk to someone instead of standing up and talking to someone. If I'm facing someone or I'm turning my neck because I have instability in my neck, that's going to make a huge difference too. So what are the physical things around these connections? How are they making me feel? And it's not that one person is worse or better than anyone else. It's just that different people in different times in our life make us feel differently. Different workouts make us feel differently. And I think that's why this whole one size fits all for life is so silly when it comes to health.

Michelle Shapiro [00:46:57]:
Because every single person experiences things so differently, down to the minutiae of what they're doing minute by minute at a party.

Nicki Parlitsis [00:47:03]:
And that positive social connection, as you're saying this, I'm thinking like I'm an extrovert. For me, that positive social connection is blabbing my mouth for hours on end, like constantly talking and hanging out with people in like a semi loud environment. To someone else, that positive social connection is like sitting on a couch with someone that they love, like watching their favorite show together in silence, so doesn't have to look a certain way. And I think sometimes we don't allow ourselves to get to know ourselves deeper in the sense that, like if you are giving a presentation at work or you are studying for a job interview, you're going to put in some prep time. Like you're going to do your research, you're going to put in some prep work, take some notes so that you're more knowledgeable for game time. Now, when it comes to you. Sometimes we're like, why? Why is this not just happening? Like, why don't I know this about myself? We have to kind of get the research. Like, you knowing, oh, yeah.

Nicki Parlitsis [00:48:07]:
When I. When I speak, I come off and I'm buzzing in a good way. Like, I feel really good. I feel restored. So that's just one more note in our notebook that we're like, okay, cool. Those situations make me feel most of me, most like myself. So when we start to do that enough times over the course of days, weeks, months, years, we start to have this whole list of things that really restore us and make us feel good and paired also with the stuff that doesn't really leave us feeling great. So this is also something that doesn't.

Nicki Parlitsis [00:48:42]:
It doesn't happen right away. It will take some time, but we do sometimes need to put in that time with ourself and that work to figure out who we are and what works for us.

People pleasing is all about: can you tolerate discomfort?

Michelle Shapiro [00:48:51]:
An illness can make us believe things about our personality that aren't true. Also, I'll tell you that if you would look at any of us on our worst day in sickness versus our healthiest day, we do not look like the same person. Right. So it's always a process to get to know ourselves. It's always a process to get to know what's going to affect us and what isn't. The same things that would make you or I tired ten years ago are completely different than those things now. There's a baseline. We're both mega extroverted people, obviously.

Michelle Shapiro [00:49:23]:
But if you were to look at us on our sickest day, we're not. We're not in the same place at all. And it's so it's not. Just also know that whatever symptoms you're having aren't your you right? So. Right. It's your you right now. That's how you're feeling right now. But the base and your.

Michelle Shapiro [00:49:41]:
The base of your personality and your core and your soul, that really doesn't change. I don't believe over time, which is a bigger spiritual question, but what you can tolerate in your physical body and what you want to tolerate in your physical body does change. So it's really just to kind of pull us back. The people pleasing conversation is mostly about, can we tolerate discomfort? What is making us uncomfortable, and who are we, and what are the voices that are going on in our head? And then once we can build that life around who we authentically are and build those boundaries around that, too, we can experience amazing health and do all the things we love and sometimes maybe not feel 100%, but it might be worth it for the experience that we want to have.

Nicki Parlitsis [00:50:23]:
And I love that you are saying, too, that I think sometimes we can be in those negative places or those painful moments and think, oh, my God, I've reverted back. Or, you know, we sometimes give them too much credit or too much attention. And I don't mean that we shouldn't be giving them any attention, but, for instance, like, you know, I'll be feeling in my past healing, like, part of my healing journey. I think I would be, like, bloated one day and think, oh, my God, this is forever. Like, I'm back to where I was before. And then I think when we get to this place of knowing ourselves and self acceptance, it's kind of like, okay, yeah, this is. Today sucks. Tomorrow I'll do what I need to do, and tomorrow will be better, and I'll be fine.

Nicki Parlitsis [00:51:12]:
But we sometimes, I think, also place these unrealistic expectations on ourselves. Like, I'm gonna get to this place where my health is perfect, and I'm setting all the boundaries, and I'm never putting myself in a bad situation. Like, there is no perfect. It's just knowing yourself very well and knowing and also allowing yourself grace during the periods where you do need a. Some extra time. Like you said, there are moments where we're feeling fabulous, and then we just have a really bad day, physically, emotionally, whatever it is. And we could either sit there and, like, wallow in it, or we could say, all right, my body needs a little extra love today. Let me go to my list of things I need to do to help restore 100%.

Michelle Shapiro [00:51:54]:
And again, knowing those recovery tips is really what your recovery profile is. And I'm just going to leave us on this note. Listen to me. Whoever is listening to this, listen to me. If anyone makes you feel bad about you for who you authentically are, that's completely their problem. And we do have the power to, on some level, empower ourselves enough to feel so whole that those things like Nikki said before, they're like buckets. They run through. They bounce off of us.

Michelle Shapiro [00:52:28]:
Right? So I just want you to know, if someone cares so much that you eat gluten and is going to be like, I can't believe you're not eating gluten. Oh, my gosh. You're such a health freak. It's totally on them. And the more you you are, the more wonderful your life becomes. And if you are listening to this, you are right in this exact moment. You are completely whole, you are completely good, and that you deserve health and you deserve to feel as comfortable as you are making every single other person feel. You deserve to be comfortable and you deserve to be well.

Michelle Shapiro [00:53:01]:
So I just need you to hear that. Because at the core of a lot of this is also the belief that for whatever reason, those with people pleasing tendencies do not deserve the same grace and health and happiness as other people. Throw that out the window. And I just want you also listening. Please get weird and stay weird. Be weird, be quirky, be yourself. Anything that drives you is true. And just listen to yourself.

Michelle Shapiro [00:53:24]:
That's the most important thing.

Nicki Parlitsis [00:53:25]:
The last thing I want to mention is that it's also okay to ask for help. You don't have to do this by yourself. I think when part of pleasing others is also appearing like, we're fine and like, we don't. I'm good, you're having a bad day. Maybe my day also sucks, but let's talk about your bad day. And it's very much centered on the other people, the other person. And so we can look like everything's totally fine. And so part of this, we're talking about intimately getting to know yourself and learning all this stuff about you.

Nicki Parlitsis [00:54:01]:
But at the same time, if you need support or you need to vent to someone or talk through things with someone or seek help from a practitioner or whatever it is, you do not need to go through any of this on your own. And it doesn't mean you're weak. It doesn't mean you know anything negative about you. It's actually very, it's a very strong thing to do, to ask for support or ask for help when you need it from someone that you feel comfortable seeking help from.

Michelle Shapiro [00:54:30]:
I love it. I'm leaving it on that note. Thank you very much. Thank you.