This episode is sponsored by Pique Tea

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Timestamps

 

(6:20) Intro to Jake 

(10:30) Integrating exercise, nutrition, and holistic health 

(19:48) Why the conventional medical system is failing us

(27:15) Fundamental nutrition truths for all 

(42:00) Managing expectations in functional medicine 

(45:00) Vitamin D

(51:15) Iron

(1:01:56) Multivitamins

(1:05:19) Magnesium

(1:11:06) B12 & B-vitamins

(1:18:01) Glutathione

 

 

Transcript 

 

Vitamins and Supplements with Coach Jake Doleschal

Michelle Shapiro 

I am over the moon excited to introduce our amazing guests today on the quiet the diet podcast we have today coach Jake Doleschal, you may know him from Instagram, or you may honestly know him from my Instagram because I repost him more than I honestly make posts myself. I've been following Jake for a while. And I was always struck by his eloquence. And the way that he summarizes really, the experience of a patient going through a health crisis and through the health care system in Australia was so similar to the experience that my clients were having in America.

And that struck me as being both really compelling and really odd because I would think that our healthcare systems are so different, or the people might be really different and the experiences they have. But there was a kind of commonality and felt experience that was so mutual. And that's always what resonated so much with me about Jake's messaging. And here's just a little bit more about Jake before the episode kicks off. Jake is a qualified nutritional therapist and fitness coach.

He works mostly with two groups of people, those who want to reach their pinnacle of physical development, and then those who want to optimize their health and regain quality of life by healing from chronic illness. Jake has studied and mentor with a range of world leading functional medicine doctors, PhDs and world leading bodybuilding coaches as well. He's had the opportunity to lecture and educate coaches and functional nutrition and blood chemistry.

And he really does have a beautiful mastery of nutritional supplementation vitamins, blood chemistry, and that's what we're really going to dig in today so I could not be more excited. We're gonna hear a little bit about our sponsor peak before the episode kicks off, and then we're gonna get right into it. Thank you for listening. I can't wait for this one.

Michelle Shapiro 

Our amazing sponsor for today's episode is Pique. I am extremely excited to talk with you about peak primarily because there are a group of products that I use almost daily, and specifically I love their ginger digestion elixir, which I've used while traveling while at home, really every single day and what I love so much about peak is that they have a little pockets that you can bring with you to mix into either cold or warm fluid so it's so easy for traveling on the go instead of me bringing my ginger teas.

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They're very mineral rich and I know getting enough minerals is essential for both myself and my clients more importantly the function of these two products. The radiance in the radiant skin duo is really to support your skin from the inside out. We know our skin is the largest organ in our body and anything that happens inside or outside of our skin can influence us the Sun Goddess Matcha and BT Fountain really work together to provide the foundations necessary for radiant glowing skin.

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Intro to Jake Doleschal

I so excitedly and joyously have with me, coach Jake Doleschal, coming in from Australia, and at a time that we discussed works best for both of us because it's 7am My time, which is mid morning for me and 9pm Jake's time, which is you know, mid evening for you because you're a late person. That's extremely cool.

Jake Doleschal 

Exactly. God and Michelle, you said my name perfectly. So I'm very impressed. Well, then,

Michelle Shapiro 

I think it must be because I spend so much of my time just re sharing your posts on Instagram, but I've seen it so many times. That's why I'm pronouncing it right. You're definitely. And it's exactly it's a part of my intrinsic memory. Yeah, it's not even a question. I will in no joking way you are the account that I undoubtedly share the most.

I feel like the way that you approach things on Instagram is so representative of who you are as a coach and a practitioner, and why I was like fan girling for you to come on today. And so, so excited. I just love the way that you look at things. So holistically. So thank you so much for being here.

Jake Doleschal

Thank you, that means a lot. Thank you.

Michelle Shapiro 

I want to hear from you, Jake, like about your personal and professional journey to end up as this specific type of coach that you are which I also will say I consider you a functional coach. I don't know if that's a word you would use in Australia, I want to talk about that like kind of the difference between the conventional versus functional there versus here. But tell us about your professional development to end up with being this amazing coach and practitioner you are

Jake Doleschal 

I kind of fell into it to be entirely honest. So I came into it more than the fitness route. So I done like my fitness certificates. I went to uni and studied sport. And I kind of did all that just because I was interested in it. But I wasn't planning on doing it for work I was working in not for profit, I was working for charities at the time. And I just kind of kept upskilling. And I just kept doing these these courses and kept studying it just because I liked it.

And eventually what happened is the charity I was working for we lost our funding and we close up. I was like, Well, I don't really know what to do. Now I've got all these certificates and these qualifications. Maybe I'll just work as a coach part time. So I started working as a coach. And then very quickly, I found that the people who were coming to me they just weren't getting the results they expected. At this point in time, it actually moved across the country.

And I was working pretty well respected gym in Australia. And we were getting like really high end clients. So we're getting people who've gone to all the PTS you can think of they've done this stuff for years, I didn't get the results they wanted. And I had all these generally women who just weren't getting anywhere. And at the same time, my partner at the time, she also was in a very similar position. She hadn't been getting anywhere to health and fitness. She was working with an amazing coach as well. And it just wasn't working. And so she started digging deeper.

Turns out she had parasites and that was like a big thing a roadblock for her. And no one could kind of figure out what was going on. So I started trying to help her I started digging into blood work. I met some my my good colleagues, Dave O'Brien, he started teaching me blood work. And through this process, we kind of helped her and then I was able to help my clients. And then I realized that ultimately, like almost all these clients who are coming to me they've got these same issues in common.

And so within a couple of years, I had sort of gone from ultimately just doing body composition, strength based work to now people were coming to me maybe they had somebody come goals, but they heard about me through clients who had endometriosis, or whatever, sort of health issues, IBS, whatever. And then it kind of just kept shifting that way. And I guess I just like that's what I mean by fell into it. I just realized actually, the more went down that path.

The more though this realized people were being let down like there just wasn't really an avenue for people who had sort of these health issues apart from the conventional system, which wasn't helping anyone. They just weren't really getting help anywhere else. And like it's weird. I'm like, I'm a fitness coach. Like, why am I the one is helping these people like that doesn't really make sense. But that's kind of how I ended up here. And you know, that was like 10 years ago now or whatever it was. Maybe not quite that but a while ago, but that's sort of how I led to this point.

Michelle Shapiro 

That's incredible. And for you it was really they'd like logic lead the path because you were like, This is weird. They're all doing calories in calories out lifting, they're doing everything they need to be doing and it's they're just not getting results.

Jake Doleschal 

Not only are they not getting the body composition results are they expecting but you know, they've also got impaired sleep, they've got poor poor energy, poor digestion, like it wasn't even just, oh, they're not losing body fat. It's like these people were just not healthy human beings like nothing is working well for them, let alone losing body fat.

 

Integrating Exercise, Nutrition, and Holistic Health

Michelle Shapiro 

Yeah, it's I think, I don't know how it's possible that they're still trainers or nutritionists who are still kind of obliging by that calories in calories out mentality and ignoring the whole of the person. But I actually think that you being a fitness trainer is a unique position for you to be the person that turned into this type of practitioner, because trainers are sitting with people in a really intimate way and holding that space for them.

I actually think it's, if you're paying attention as a trainer, you actually end up probably going in the same direction, because you notice like, Oh, they're not feeling well. And what I'm doing isn't working. I never understand when people who are just so straight up calories in calories out, I'm like, do you think their patients or clients are getting results? Or do you think that they're just not caring? If they get rich? Like, do you think there's a special type of person who gets results? What do you think? Just an opinion question?

Jake Doleschal 

Yeah, there's a lot of good points you brought up there. So one point I just want to touch on is, you mentioned how, like, as a coach, sort of, you need a good position to work with these people. It's really interesting, because I do a lot of educating with like, practitioners and coaches as well. And when I was doing a lot of like upscaling for myself, and last few years, and learning from like naturopathic doctors, and people like that, I remember seeing these courses and be like, This is fascinating, like the understanding of, of, you know, the human body is amazing.

And blood chemistry is amazing. And then I start talking about exercise. And I'm like, Oh, my God, oh, no, like, you just don't understand this at all. Or they talk about nutrition. And again, similar, it's like, some of that's good, but some of that, oh, my goodness, that is so off. And so one of the the people I mentor, I get coaches who don't understand that side of things like the, you know, the blood chemistry and physiology and what I mean, that's great, I can, I can go with that with them.

And then some of the people I mentor, naturopath, or nurses or people in the medical world, and they get a lot of that stuff, maybe a bit more from a conventional standpoint, sometimes, but you know, they've got a fairly good handle. And it's the exercise and the nutrition and that stuff that they have 95. And that's the stuff we can go over. So I think integrating those two together, that's really powerful. But to your point with coaches who do the calories in calories out and does work, I think there's probably two things I've mentioned there. One is, it'll work for some people.

And if you work with enough people, you're gonna get enough results. And so if you know, ultimately, what these coaches do, well, if it doesn't work for them, it worked for all these people. So what's wrong with you? Like you're lying to me, you know, I remember hearing this all the time and industry, it's like, well, your, your clients lying to you, if they're not losing body fat delight, and they're not tracking, blah, blah, it's like, well, I can tell you like I lived with someone who checked perfectly, and she was at like, 11 150 calories day in day out, she did not budge. So it's not always the case.

And sometimes, like I'm in a privileged position where I seen that not work. Like some coaches haven't seen that. And so they've been told by other coaches, they're lying. And that's all they've got to work off. And then you get like an 18 year old PT, who has no life experience, she's like, Oh, well, someone said, they're lying. Therefore, I'm going to tell this 45 year old woman with Hashimotos, that she's lying. So just because you haven't experienced it doesn't mean that that's the only only sort of solution or outcome.

So I think that's, that's part of the issues, they're gonna get results if it doesn't work with those clients and move on. But one other point that I guess I want to make is a lot of the time coaches who are doing this stuff, and you know, nothing against, you know, some of these coaches, but they probably know that those methods aren't working for everyone. Like, I've had conversations with coaches in industry.

And you know, like, I'm not going to name names of people who have really big names in industry. And I've specifically asked him about, hey, you know, what do you do with clients? Are these gut issues? And they'd say, I don't know. I don't know anything about like gut health does. If it doesn't work. It's not my thing, as Okay. So you're like, literally some with millions of followers, and you're like, well, wow, I don't know what to do. Like, that's like, how many people have IBS? Like, what 10 15% Whatever the last stats are, like, that's a huge percentage of people you're not able to service.

Michelle Shapiro 

And you're also just it. Have you ever heard of the Dunning Kruger effect, which is like these two psychologists made an X Y axis for confidence and competence. Like you said, that 18 year old PT who's like, Listen, what I learned in school, like, Look what I got, and when you and I have worked with, I know you've worked with like 1000s of people to the more that you were with people, the more you realize that it is, the necessity of individuality is so high for every single person where again, even to 45 year old Hashimoto’s patients might look completely different from each other because of other things going on in their body.

And I think, I guess you really eloquently answered my question, which is either people are sticking to their ego and sticking to Hey, this is what I learned. This is what I know. And they like you said, there's people who are pretty, like if you're metabolically active calories in calories out will probably work for you better than if you have other like metabolic dysfunction, then it becomes, you know, a bigger picture issue.

So I think like you're saying maybe if they're working with people who have never tried to lose weight before, have no concurrent autoimmunity got issues, anything like that, which is very rare to find these days. And they just try to want to lose 10 pounds or something. Calories will probably work for them, honestly. Yeah. Yeah. There's people who will work for so that's a really good answer.

Yeah, that makes sense to me. And then also, Jake, this is so interesting, because I don't know if you know this, but in the States, I feel like when it comes to celiac disease, when it comes to any sort of gut condition, we always are like, ah, if you just go to Europe, or you go to Australia, foods, so much better there. I can eat gluten there and not have a problem.

But so I've always perceived, and this is like, you know, I think it was different, honestly, when I was in school versus now but I've always perceived Australian and much of Europe to have better kind of health than Americans do. Is that am I totally wrong in that. Have you guys caught up and been westernized? Like, tell me what's going on in that kind of chronic illness landscape? Like, are we just wrong?

Jake Doleschal 

I have a feeling we've caught up a little bit. If you look at the obesity rates, like we're pretty close to you guys. So I don't know the well off. But I guess it's funny, because what you said about oh, you know, I can go to Australia and I can eat gluten, we say the same thing. People said, I can go to Europe and I can eat gluten.

Now, I don't know about you, but it's interesting. So maybe Europe, that's better. Yeah, well, if you look at the countries that don't use glyphosate, it's interesting that the countries where people generally feel better at way too often places where they're not using glyphosate. So I don't know, I'm not saying that's definitely the only thing but it's interesting, but I don't think we're that much better off than you guys to be entirely honest.

And, you know, even creative, or people on medications, you know, chronic health conditions, it's relatively similar. And I couldn't tell you, statistically speaking how this has changed in the last couple of decades. But I know for me, like, when I was in school, like how many people had a chronic health condition? You know, not many people, I love all the people on my social network, I could think of a handful of people who have some kind of health condition.

And nowadays, like, I'm struggling to think of a handful of people who don't have a health condition like that is a unique situation to be in. So completely agree. Yeah. If it's anything like you guys, yes, it's gonna be the same. So I don't I don't think we're much better off over here to be entirely honest, I do think our food supply is better. I do agree with that. And that will obviously translate into some better health. Definitely. But yeah, I think we have gone downhill. Yeah,

Michelle Shapiro 

though, definitely. Maybe you have glyphosate too. And that's why in Europe, maybe Europe is the glyphosate free place in some countries. And maybe that's why Australia and the United States have similar. It's really interesting. And this is so fascinating to me, because it's not only that, in the chronic illness conversation, sorry, my brain is going so fast, because I have so many things I want to ask you already. I'm like, Oh my god.

So my cousin's boyfriend is from New Zealand. He's a rugby player, kata, super cool. And it was interesting, because he had family members who had lupus. And my my cousin also has lupus. And I was always so fascinated, I was like, I wouldn't even think that autoimmune conditions or any disorders of immunity would be happening. But it does seem like again, a lot of chronic illness rates have been catching up in other countries.

This is the the Absolute Truth is that when I think of, like when I'm thinking of New Zealand, I'm thinking in general, of course it is. I do believe the chronic illness rates are lower, but I'm thinking of people who are outdoors more, I'm thinking of people who are engaging in like sport more. So what's fascinating to me, I did look up also chronic illness rates in Australia versus America. And you got like you said, You guys are about 50% of one or more diagnose conditions and in the United States is about 60%.

So it's, it's quite comparable at this point. And what I also find to be comparable and odd, and that I really want to talk to you about is it's just so weird to me that the messaging you have around doctor's appointments and around the conventional care that people are receiving and the gaslighting people get in doctors offices, it's the same thing happening across the world. What's your explanation of that? Why is it the same exact system, but on opposite sides of the world? And what real problems are you seeing with that care?

 

Why the Conventional Medical System is Failing Us

Jake Doleschal 

Yeah, it's an interesting one because like our model is quite different to yours. We've kind of got this hybrid private and public model and so it's it's, it's marginally better, I suppose in some ways in terms of how it works. And, like for me in terms of the clients I work with, I work with clients all over the world. And it's funny because I look at Aussie clients and look at our health care. And it's a headache. It's an absolute headache.

And I'll talk about that more in a moment. But then I get clients in like, especially some European countries, and it's next level, like, you know, they'll be in a situation where they won't be able to get blood work done. And the doctor they've got, they'll say, Look, I'll order like, literally, I'll order like a full blood count, not even with differentials, like hardly anything. And that's it. And in my head, I'm like, Well, why don't you just go to another doctor, like, just find someone else? And like, Man, I can't. This is a doctor, I'm given, I'm not allowed to go outside. It's like, oh, my gosh, your system is miles behind hours and hours sucks. So in some ways, we're kind of lucky. But it's unbelievable. Because at least over here, if we're not getting the care we need, we can just pay for it.

Yeah. So we're not stuck in, like locked in that system. But it's still obviously conventional. So if the question is, well, why is the conventional system failing us? I guess we have I mean, that's such a big question how, like, if we just go back to the roots of medicine, go back 150 years, we can, we can start to identify where things are wrong. But if we just look at here now, well, the issue is like our healthcare system is not set up for health, like, you know, this as well as I do. The goal is not to make someone healthy. The goal is to manage disease.

And that's like, that's all well and good. Like, if we're honest with that's what we're doing. Okay, let's, let's just be clear with that. But you're not going to adopt it to be optimally healthy. They're not that's not the goal, you know, we can see is very clear with the way they look at network, you know, they get a blood test. And let's say, Well, this is where we think this is dangerous. If your point one of the, that's fine. Or your one point over that, let's use a medication that's gonna get you just under and now we're happy again.

Like, that's ultimately the goal. So I think if we're looking at healthcare, we're like, Well, why are we failing people? Why people just stacking more and more medication? And why are we seeing chronic health disease go up? Well, that's why because we're not actually trying to fix anything. But it's like, how do we keep it within these parameters? And okay, if you've gone outside it, here's another medication. And that's it. We're not actually trying to make people healthy. So in a nutshell, I think that's what the issue is. It's sick as disease care. So health care?

Michelle Shapiro 

Absolutely. I think it comes from the belief, I'm assuming that our body is kind of in separate parts, and that our body is not one whole, if you have a thyroid condition, your thyroid is not connected to the rest of your body, and we're not seeing the connection. I'm wondering probably, and this is a more speculative question.

But the people who invented modern medicine, I'm sure that they're kind of deriving from Europe, the United States or Australia, and the same message is being disseminated at the same time across the entire world, because it seems like again, the same exact lab work issues, you know, one body part view of the body is happening everywhere. So it's probably the same dudes, by the way. I'm assuming it was just the same people. And that was disseminated across the world

Jake Doleschal 

that absolutely, yeah, yeah. And it's a fairly new way of doing medicine. You know, the Western medicine model is 150 years old, something like that. And it took over from an alternative form he took over from like, homeopathic medicine. And they were head to head, right like, and you know, homeopathic medicine is its own thing entirely.

But you probably know this as well as I do that. They were just as popular for a long time. And it was just recently, fairly dodgy kind of political work that actually, basically homeopathic medicine just got shunted completely. And then over 100 years, that's where it really Western medicine took over.

Michelle Shapiro 

Yeah, it's a very short timeframe in the context of TCM or AI or VEDA which are estimated to be 5000 to 10,000 years old, we're talking about 100 years. You're absolutely right. I also, again, my impression would be proximity wise, Australia is obviously closer to some of these the countries where these ancient modalities derived.

So I would think possibly the influence would be stronger, but from what you're saying, it seems like modern medicine just kind of squashed everything in its path. It's is it not accepted to practice TCM or Ayurveda? Or natural apathy? I want to hear about that from you, too. No, not

Jake Doleschal 

really. No, it's not really like it's very, very westernized here. But don't forget that, like our country, as far as like white settlement, a white civilization in Australia, like it's not much older than Western medicine is.

So we don't have these kind of like, ancient roots to really draw on, obviously, our indigenous people that's going to be complete and like they're very skeptical of modern medicine and Western medicine. But in terms of sort of modern Australia, we don't have that sort of history.

Michelle Shapiro 

And it's, you're not at any point and I'm assuming in medical schools we're not learning about Uh, medicinal properties from indigenous peoples of Australia, that's not like something that would be coming up or something that it's really just strictly modern medicine have been studied. Yeah, it's really interesting. Yeah. And sad to me. Yeah,

Jake Doleschal 

yeah. I mean, we've got cuz I mean, obviously, we've got like tea tree oil. And we've got a lot of a lot of native plants that aren't really found elsewhere. And every now and then I see a new study come out. And it's like, basically, they'll be like, we don't know about any properties, really, of this plant.

And now we studied and now we find like, there was one, only last year with some kind of lemon Myrtle. I think it was like Australian lemon Myrtle. And they found that it potentially activate satellite cells and they hadn't studied before, and maybe that could have some even potentially, like, body composition benefits, potentially. And it's like, this is why we study this and 2022 like, goodness, when are we actually going to really do our due diligence?

Michelle Shapiro 

Absolutely. It's, I mean, I guess what it just comes down to this is all major colonization issues, too. I mean, this is that is at the root of the conversation we're having is that it's just not taking into appreciation, understanding what has been known scientifically, for 1000s and 1000s. of years, and really good science to because it's being vetted by use with humans and seeing what works and what doesn't, and then passed down generationally, which is, in my opinion, very good science, the best probably versus doing a test on a like rat in a lab.

You know, that's, that's not as good science as that, which is fascinating. So I think this, I just think that piece of the conversation is really important, because it's definitely a misconception, I think that a lot of Americans have, which is that, like, We are the sickest, and the same thing isn't happening other places. But when the ideology is sprouting from the same place and being spread, it ends up the same everywhere, which is sad, but I mean, we have to talk about it. It's important. Like, I think that's really, really important. Yeah, at least we're all in the same boat together.

 

The Downsides of Focusing Only on Clinical Studies

Michelle Shapiro 

Exactly. We'll all be sick together. There we go. No, we're going to all heal together. We can joke about being sick together, but we're going to all heal together. And this again, this was so fascinating to me, because and I find this a lot of amazing practitioners, Jake, no matter if you're in Australia, America, anywhere in the entire world, but we kind of all land in the same spot. Like every time you post something, I'm like, Yes, repost. Yes.

Because I think there is inherent truth about health. It's not that I think people think science is so finicky, and nutrition is so finicky, and that it is always changing and evolving. But at the bottom, there's some things that we just know, and that are true, right? And what are those for you?

What are those, like inevitable truths that you think and this is a hard question, but inevitable truths that you think are true for all people? When it comes to nutrition? Like no matter? Where you are kind of what you're going through? What do you think is always true?

Jake Doleschal 

Love that I find a lot of the time people can become too hyper focused on a study. And it's like, well, this study showed this outcome. And then they wait for another study is like, well, actually, this study showed this outcome and then you flip flopping like, I don't know what to blame now, like, I just wait for the next study to come out. And that's going to tell me what to believe. And what one of the most liberating things you can you can do is to start to try to understand, well, how's the body actually work?

Like, if we actually understand what's the mechanism behind this, then we can look at a study and be like, I have a feeling I know where that study is going to end. Like, we can start to predict the outcome based on how the human body is working. And obviously, you know, different compounds and stuff that's gonna be a little bit different, like, we'll learn more. But once we basically understand like how a human body works, they will weaken it just, we're just, it's so much more empowering, rather than just being stuck waiting for what that study outcome is.

So I love that. But in terms of like, just basic, universal things, I mean, that's a tough one, if we're just looking at nutrition only, I think the hard question it is it is and because even epigenetically, you know, we have to we have to accept that. Some people can do better on certain diets. So I was plant based for over a decade. And I tried my best and I felt okay.

Yeah, I mean, a lot of us have been there, a lot of people in this space have been there. But like, genetically speaking, I'm not made to do that, like I've got to be so my one gene, I'm not gonna deal with vitamin A very well and take MTHFR gene, like there's a lot of things that are stacked up against me on being on a plant based diet, but there's some people who they're gonna be okay. Ish. They're gonna, they're gonna do better than I'm gonna do you know what I mean? So there's always going to be individual variants, but I think if we just understand well, from a like, Doctor, I don't know if you know Dr. Grind Walsh, he's he's you probably familiar with him. So definitely check out his work

Michelle Shapiro 

good. Yeah, yeah. No, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jake Doleschal 

So he talks about I'm not sure if he made this up, or if he got or someone else but talks about this, this sort of sequence of how do we create a human a healthy human? Yeah. And he talks about like, well, if cells are healthy, then we're gonna have healthy tissue. You have tissue cells, you're gonna have healthy organs, or with the healthy healthy organ systems, healthy organ systems, we're gonna have a healthy human organism.

And if we just go all the way back to that basic level, let's look at cells like well, what do we need for cells to function? Well, we need B vitamins, we need B 12. And the B nine. Like, if we just start looking at the building blocks, I mean, where did we get the 12? meats? Like we don't get in plants? Right? You know, where do we get, like, you know, we start looking at what the body's made out of bones, you know, what's bones made out of? It's made out of collagen? Where do we get collagen? Where we get glycine? Like most of this getting animals?

Yeah. Like, once we start digging it really deeper, what are the things we fundamentally need? It's like, well, those things aren't found anywhere else, except for in animals and animal trucks. So that's, to me is is a fundamental truths. It's like, yes, well, lucky. And we're, you know, we live in an age now where if you don't want to eat animals, you can actually do that, because we've got supplementation now. But for all of human history, we didn't have that, you know, you couldn't take a B 12 supplement.

So I think that's like, for me, that's one of the most universal nutrition truth is like, you know, what, as a human, we actually need animals in our diet. And if not, then we need a supplement pretty intelligently?

Michelle Shapiro 

Absolutely. I think that's a really important truth. And you circled around this extremely important topic, which is, there's the difference between my friend Andre on the AMA always says, there's a difference between the science of nutrition and the practice of nutrition. And you are a practice of nutrition person, which is the highest compliment I can give. But I also I love when you're talking about, we don't need a study to understand phase one and phase two liver detoxification, we know what that is.

So I think people are always looking for that, like one studies to substantiate, it's so interesting, I got into like a little bit of a battle with a dietitian on Instagram, who was saying, there's no RCTs saying that seed oils or consumption of linoleic acid is inflammatory. And I was like, I don't need to study because I know the pathways that it goes down. So since I know the biology, I don't need a specific study to verify the biochemical reactions that are going on. We know that already.

Jake Doleschal 

Exactly. But it's heresy for us to say that, like that, if you say that on on social media, you say that to the evidence base? Well, you know, like, that's, you're not allowed to say that, you know, like, it has to be it has to be outcome first mechanism doesn't matter. What do we see? observationally? What do we see in humans, the mechanism simply is irrelevant. And for long time I saw I heard that, and I'm, like, doesn't make sense to me. But like, everyone's saying this, like, I guess I have to believe it.

Eventually, like, it just doesn't make sense. Like, I'm not seeing this work with my clients. I know, if I focus on the mechanism, I know, I'm gonna have a healthier client. So eventually, like, Screw it. I'm just gonna do this. And then I started hearing more people say, You know what, this doesn't make sense. I'm like, Oh, thank goodness. One.

Michelle Shapiro 

Absolutely. Yeah, I think it's also just, you know, sit across from someone, I've worked with over 1000 clients, some of my clients I've been with for four years weekly, I know what's going to influence their bodies at this point, because they communicated with me, I'm very aware of what's going to be right for them.

And it's so it's, it's like, there's such amazing science and in the practice of nutrition, because you're literally, you know, how can you get with so my clients, over 100 hours of data and information about what works with their bodies and what their mediators are like that is, that's the gold standard in my head of seeing what actually is working with someone.

So of course, we love the science of nutrition, we love new studies, they're extremely fun and interesting. But there's no replacement, like you said, what I would call the the foundation and for you would call the mechanism. Like if you know the mechanisms, then you don't have to worry about fancy protocols and supplements, which is actually hilariously 30 minutes and the topic of today, but you don't have to worry about oh, how do I just do this fancy protocol, because the protocol will kind of lay itself out when you know what the body needs in the state and environment that it's in? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Beautiful.

I know you're gonna knock it out of the park, because I just love the way he talks about everything. Yes, thank you. Okay. So we are going to talk about nutritional supplements and vitamins today and things like that you do an amazing job of of helping not only the individual to understand application of supplements in an individual way, and for certain conditions, but you also help educate practitioners on that.

So just tell us about your Whatsapp group before we even get started. And kind of when this started, and it's just very exciting and amazing. I've been in it. So tell me about it.

Jake Doleschal 

Yeah, sure. So thank you, thank you for being part of it. So basically, I have a list of practitioners that I've mentored for a few years. And one day I was like, I think I had two people asked me the same question. And I was like, You know what this real world of questions I'm getting that like other traditions would benefit from hearing that answer. And I thought tripping don't even just practitioners like maybe just the layperson who wants to know some of this stuff. So putting together this group, but the intention was only going to be, I'm just going to share like one question I get from one of these mentoring clients into it.

And I was like, if I can get 20, people who are part of this, like, I'll be happy, at least 20 people will want to be educated. And they'll go back a few 100 people sign up and affiliate short amount of time, it's like, Oh, my goodness, like a lot of people want to be educated. So now that's become, it's sort of transformed into a combination of everything we've talked about so far. So I've tried to put in bloodwork in there, kind of optimal values, or work off how you can start to identify patterns.

But then I've tried to merge it as well with like, the fitness side of things, which is a little bit new for me in terms of like, my audience is probably they do gravitate more towards the health side of things rather than the fitness side of things. So I know I'm nurturing them along with this. And I know that maybe it's not the most popular stuff. But I think the educational aspect of that is really important to to integrate it all together.

And then I tried to provide sort of some of this, like newer studies that are coming out if there's something really interesting that I'm sort of seeing that's been published, or some some alternative health protocols that people could experiment with it, it sort of offering an alternative just to conventional therapy, or conventional treatments. So I've got I don't know, over maybe 30 or 40, Health criticals on there. But it's just an opportunity, I guess, for me to help educate people, and not just practitioners, but people who are just interested as well for their own health and family and loved ones, too.

Michelle Shapiro 

Yeah. And I have to say, what I love about your protocols. And what I love about your approach to vitamins and supplements and minerals and and herbals is that you are always working at the mechanism when you're giving these recommendations. So your protocols, I noticed that about them. It's not like if you have so the difference. I'll give an example for people as if you had something like HPA Axis dysregulation, or what we used to call it like adrenal fatigue, right? Like burnout.

Okay, let's say it used to be that you would treat that by trying to do things to make your body either calm down or come up depending on what was going on with your cortisol. But now we know that our HPA Axis requires minerals for function. And we know that our HPA Axis requires certain cofactors vitamins for function. So it's not only just trying to make your kind of symptoms of high or low cortisol change, but it's also working at what is the actual system require?

And I really noticed that about your protocols, which I think is so amazing. And what I want to ask you about is, what are you seeing and ways of like it because your podcast called gut feelings adorable? What are you seeing in ways of gut supplementation and things like that? That? I think I'm guessing a leading question, but that looks more like a conventional kind of supplement approach versus what I call like a more integrative or functional approach, like you have. Can we talk about that a little bit?

Jake Doleschal 

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I think we've we always had these dangers of alternative health or functional health and function medicine or whatever language you want to use, becoming just an alternative to conventional medicine, and conventional medicine. I mean, really, it's a pill for every ill, you know, that's really what they're doing is what medicine can be used for whatever diagnoseable condition.

And alternative medicine sometimes can start to do that it can start to be like, Well, you've got, and often they'll make up different diagnoses, right? Instead of, you know, whatever. It'll be like, Well, you've got leaky gut, you can test leaky gut, you've got Candida overgrowth, you've got to see where they've got their own list. Exactly. We've got our own lists. And we say, well, this is the treatment for this condition that we've now got. And so you know, here's a leaky gut protocol, here's a whatever.

And so it's not getting to what the cause is, and I think this is something I've sort of, I guess, thought a lot about over the last couple of years is when you do understand the mechanism behind things, it can, sometimes it can be easy to justify why something might be going on. Right? So let's say someone does have whatever health condition, let's just, let's just say endometriosis, right? And then we look at somebody's going to Endo, and they've maybe got digestive symptoms. And it's really easy for us to look at that and be like, Well, we know Studies show that people then have higher levels of negative gram bacteria. We know negative gram bacteria is what makes up SIBO. This person's got digestive symptoms, here's a really plausible explanation.

And so we offer that explanation, but it's like, well, what if that wasn't, and then we start making a healthier human, and they get better? And it's like, well, they got better anyway. But maybe it wasn't what I thought it was. Right. And I think that as practitioners reality is, I think most of the time, we probably don't actually know what the underlying causes, right? Like we can take a really good guess. And maybe sometimes it's that and maybe sometimes it's not, but ultimately, we get a healthier human who's functioning better the blood work is more in line with where it should be.

Those symptoms are going to start to get better whether it was what I said it was or it wasn't because you know, any symptom somebody comes to me with, I can probably think of four or five ways to explain that in really convincing ways that would make sense With the body, but it may not have been any of those, you know what I mean? So I don't even know how do we how are we sort of mixing natural and conventional, I think that's probably the biggest one is we've just started coming up with an alternative, I guess a supplement for every ill instead of a pill, you know, it's the same thing.

Michelle Shapiro 

I call it junk functional, where unlike No, that's conventional medicine, if you're giving one specific supplement, prescribing a supplement for a specific problem, you're not approaching or looking at the possible root causes. And you also touched on something which has been a concern for me in the functional medicine world, which is needing to find one root deist of root causes, I think we have many system wide failures happening at the same time.

And actually getting to the root cause of something can actually neglect the other root causes that are happening at the same time. So there really is not one root of root causes. All things in our body happen connected to each other.

So one thing can make another thing have a feedback loop amongst itself. So targeting kind of like you said, and I have I've used this visual in other episodes, but it's like almost if our bodies are a house, and we want to, you know, have again, we're targeting let's say something like SIBO, or something like that, if the bottom of our house and our foundation is torn up and wretched, but the top of our house looks pretty good. And we hang pretty pictures up. That's like throwing little supplements on there, you put pretty pictures on upstairs. It doesn't matter if the foundation is crumbling.

So you have to focus on in every single person, what is that foundation? And I often have clients coming to me saying, What are you think about this supplement? Like I don't think anything about that supplement, I don't think about supplements, I think about what is going on in your body, and how we can use these tools to facilitate an environmental or system wide change. It's not to fix that one thing.

It's to look at and see how it can shift things and create a little momentum and healing versus let me fix let me fix leaky gut with this supplement. And that's really a concern with a lot of the guts supplements I see too, because it's and it's targeting people who are bloated and vulnerable and uncomfortable. And it's saying, Here, take this supplement, there's no way a supplement can fix a problem. And I think that's what people are missing to

 

Managing Expectations in Functional Nutrition

Jake Doleschal 

No way It's an attitude issue as well as an ad or perception issue because people we expect it to work the way conventional medicine works. And so people like well, conventional medicine says take this whatever medication for 12 weeks, or for six months for the rest of my life, and then whatever issue will will be better. And so that's often, you know, it's different when people have been part of the sort of alternative health wealth for a long time.

But if someone's just entering it, that's the attitude that have and it's understandable why that's all they know. So they'll come to your eyes practitioner and be like, well, I've got x issue X symptom X condition, what do I do expecting to be told, take this supplement, or take these five supplements for 12 weeks? And then go back to what you were doing and you'll be fine. And it's a hard pill to swallow to be told that actually, yes, there's some supplements wanted to take.

And some of these you may have to take forever, because you've got a pretty deficient diet. And just food in general is more efficient than it used to be. And I also need you to not eat these things that are making you worse and not do these things that are making you worse. And you know what, as a human, you actually meant to sleep at least eight hours a day. So actually due to not work until two o'clock in the morning and get four hours of sleep. Like I'll say tangent but the amount of PTS I have coming to me and like Man, I've got an issue Good night energy, what's wrong with me?

And I'm like, mate, your bloods look fine, you're getting six hours of sleep. That's why the O Na Na must have massive mitochondrial issues like No, no, just sleep, let's see what happens. And then they sleep at eight hours and like, all my energy is fine. Yeah, it's fine, because you just needed sleep.

So unless we're an that that's your reality is we need to make sacrifices, like, we're not the stuff we're not meant to do is human. And if you're not willing, like it sucks, but like, if you aren't willing to make some of those changes to live the way humans meant to live, you're probably not going to get the health outcome you want to get.

Michelle Shapiro 

That's exactly right. And again, this comes back to that foundational idea. Like don't worry about slapping a glutathione supplement on top of your crap sleep schedule. Like if you do not have your foundations in order, nervous system support blood sugar support sleep, like adequate, you know, nutrient balance, it doesn't matter what you do, there's no leaky gut supplement that's going to help if again, the what I call like almost like the just being a human things are not handled like you have to be a human first.

And before you start wondering about, you know, the supplements and things like that, and I have a saying to my clients when they say oh my gosh, I'm so tired and they feel that reactive and nervousness around feeling tired. I'm like, well, you're tired because you're tired or they're like, oh, I don't know why I feel hungry. So hungry every morning. I'm like, because you're hungry.

You know, you're hungry because you're hungry and you're tired. Like just like almost like if you were a baby, right? Like you, you we used to listen to our bodies so much when we were babies. It's like, you know, yeah, you're you're you're sad because you're Sleepy Yeah, okay, that's, that's what you're tired because you're sleepy exactly like that for your client.

 

Vitamin D Supplements from a Functional Perspective

So I want to talk about myth busting a little bit and providing some education on these very popular nutritional supplements that we see. The first one I want us to start off with is vitamin D, because I think vitamin D, from what I know of conventional doctors are very quick to recommend vitamin D, because they are measuring those levels to one of the only vitamin or mineral levels that are being monitored besides electrolytes, obviously, in your CBC.

But Vitamin D has also this, doctors have a huge fear around vitamin D, that a here because of its ability for toxicity, and they're like, you can never take more than 5000 international units. Tell me what do you what's the deal of vitamin D that you're seeing in from a societal context. And then let's talk some facts about vitamin D supplementation to.

Jake Doleschal 

So it's interesting that you find it easy to get Vitamin E tests over there over here, I actually have a real hard time getting tested. For it out of pocket. Most doctors are just not willing to do it. Yeah. And And I'll say, like, I've had doctors call me up and be like, I'm not doing this and literally refusing to do this. Why would someone need to test vitamin D? I'm like, What do you mean? Why, like a familiar with like literature tied to like, basically every single autoimmune condition under the sun. It's just a weird thing.

And even like, even that aside, it's like, well, what about the literature that says, like, what, like 50% of people low in vitamin D. And that's, like, based off, you know, conventional values, let alone optimal values. Like it's just madness, not even tested. So, yeah, that's weird. But anyway, vitamin D. So the toxicity question is a funny one. So I don't know about you. But I feel doubtful when I look at vitamin D toxicity studies.

And, and maybe there's some nuances. I looked into it a couple of years ago, but when you look at the actual studies environment they're in and there's not a lot here on vitamin D toxicity. But if you look at the symptoms associated with vitamin D toxicity, they're really similar to make these in deficiency symptoms, right? Oh, yeah. And what do we know with vitamin D in high amounts, it's going to cause depletion of magnesium. So it's a little bit interesting to me, like, I don't know how much this whole toxicity thing is an issue, obviously, it's going to increase the absorption of calcium, right? So that, you know, that can be an issue.

And, and even there's even studies where people have just had very high sun exposure, and I've actually had calcification issues. So that is a concern. But there's really simple solution to that it's called vitamin K two, exactly. So someone's taking k two with vitamin D, that's not really going to be a concern. If someone's taking magnesium with vitamin D, well, then a lot of those toxicity symptoms probably aren't going to be concerned. So for me, I don't particularly see the danger with it, or the concern or whatever.

You know why you can only take 1000 iu or whatever, it doesn't really make sense to me. That said, though, and this, we're probably going to maybe do this a little bit differently. I don't actually use vitamin D, a whole lot with my clients. And I do that, partly because when people are coming to me, it's normally like, there's it, there's a house fire, like we need to put somebody out, right? Like, it's not not many people coming to me, because like, Hey, I feel fairly good. I just want to be like, a little bit better. It's filming, like, I can't get out of bed, or you know, it's a big issue. Yeah.

And in a state like that, I would argue that, you know, there's, there's often going to be at least a dozen different supplements I'm going to want to use with our client. Yeah. And some of those will be specific for short period of time, maybe we need to do some gap repair, that's often going to be a big one, maybe there's some disposes what was going on.

And I would say that for me, I just don't think I'm in a quite makes a cut for being in the top 10 or 12 supplements I'm going to need to use with our client at that point in time. And then when we look at the literature around like, say, liver, like liver detoxification glutathione. And we see that sometimes just by improving liver status, and glutathione status, we can actually see vitamin D levels go up. If we look at the fact that by reducing inflammation and infection, we can see vitamin D status go up.

Yeah, I'm like, Well, why don't we start with that? Let's see where vitamin D ends up. And if it goes up perfect. And if it still doesn't go up 12 weeks from now, 24 weeks from now, okay, let's let's take the vitamin D, I'm fine with that. Then at that point, we're taking five or six different supplementary, we've got rid of half of them. Let's add one, you know what I mean? So that's tends to be the way I deal with clients.

And I use a lot of cod liver oil that's got a bit of vitamin D in it anyway, not a huge amount, but enough to give a bit of support. So yeah, I don't know if that answered your vitamin D question Did

Michelle Shapiro 

I think it was beautiful. And it's so funny, because in the United States, Vitamin D has crossed into the conventional layer, just so you know, which is very interesting because doctors often prescribe 50,000 international units of D two and I'm like, but if you have an issue, converting D To the d3 like like your, if you have an issue hydroxylated and then you're gonna have an issue with it, that's very common to do a weekly 50,000 international units of D two, with no K no magnesium, nothing but that's actually very common.

And I think it's because it's what's the reason why also your you are not using vitamin D as one of your top supplements is also because like we said, it's not really treating the mechanism for your people. And that's your game is like working at the mechanism. And that's usually not one of one of their top kind of conditions.

But I will say it's a little vitamin D is a weird one in the States because it is it's a little bit like it got owned by the conventional side at this point, which is it's like one of the only it'll be like, when people get their labs around. They'll do like a CBC, BMP, vitamin D like that's like the the other one that is randomly run. It's so a thing. It's very interesting. And I have the conversation about vitamin D a lot as a result of that. And it's funny that you can't even get that wrong. I don't know why it became a thing. But it is a thing here where people, it is the one it's one of the only things that is tested.

So thank you that was extremely helpful. And then I like your how you're approaching it also, instead of saying, take 5000 international units of vitamin D, you're saying, let's for most people, again, it's a mechanism game. And vitamin D is not something that's top of your list. Love that.

 

Iron Supplements from a Functional Perspective

I'm going to ask you a very hard mineral question. And it's very complicated, but we have to talk about iron supplementation iron is so complicated. But I do want us to kind of open the floor to how you feel about iron supplementation.

This is something else that if your hemoglobin or hematocrit is low, they're gonna recommend an iron supplement in the states that's very, very common. What are your concerns about iron supplementation? And what's going on with our lab work in ways of iron that we might be misunderstanding from a conventional standpoint?

Jake Doleschal 

I mean, it's a massive, massive topic, like you said. I mean, so many people are told to take iron. It is it multiple episodes, honestly, it's huge. So so many people, especially females, like it's and if someone's not eating a lot of meat as well. So if you're losing blood, because you're getting your period, and you're not any meat, heme iron, odds are you're probably not going to have an abundance of iron, you know. And so then we get these people who are testing the iron status and obviously comes back alone.

The solution is always obviously take iron ore, even worse, maybe we get people who aren't getting the period. Or maybe they're they are eating meat and their iron status looks low. And that's it. That's a worse situation to be in. Because the question, anytime there's a deficiency, whether it's iron or any nutrient, we want to ask yourself, why are we low in that? Are we low in that because we're not getting enough of that nutrient? And this is where like, sometimes it just blows my mind. Like, this is a really basic thing.

And it's like, why can't we just think this simply, if you go to a doctor, and the doctor says, hey, look, your iron status is low, your ferritin is low, your iron is low. Do you eat me? And if they say, No, I don't, I'm vegan. It's like, okay, what's the most likely reason you're low in iron? It's probably because you don't consume the most bioavailable form of iron in the world. Because he mind that would make sense while you're low. If they say, Yeah, I ate meat every day. It's like, Well, does it sound like it's an intake issue? To me? That sounds like it's probably not an intake issue. Right?

So if it's not an intake issue, what else could it be? Well, it could be malabsorption. Okay, why would it be malabsorption? Well, that's going to depend on the nutrient iron. If we get that mostly for meat, what if we melt absorbing protein? Meat? What if you have low stomach acid? That could be an issue? Yeah. Or the third issue is it could be a utilization issue, like maybe we're over utilizing a nutrient.

Maybe something's interfering with that utilization, bacterial, parasitic, whatever, then we want to start to work out what is it that's leading us to this state of deficiency? And if we specifically look at iron, it's just, it's it's so misunderstood. So our body like in functional medicine? Well, there's a saying that iron is like chocolate cake to pathogens, right. So if there's an infection going on parasitic infection, a viral infection, bacterial infection, yeast infection, literally anything, the body probably doesn't want a huge amount of circulating iron to exacerbate that, right. And so it's pretty smart, it's probably a little bit smarter than we are. And what it does is it'll produce a hormone called Epstein.

And so that's going to downregulate how much iron we absorb. And so now what we're seeing is a downregulation of how much iron we actually absorbing. And we that have started may actually affect the way we're transporting IR cells as well. So we can start to get this really funky stuff going on ferritin and our blood work and through our mind, but nonetheless, we're now not absorbing this thing efficiently. And not only we're not absorbing it, the body then says well, not only do I not want to absorb this, I don't particularly want to want to transport more and find more on the body.

So you know, downregulates transparent as well, which is our ion transport. Yeah. And so now we look at ion we look at our blood test. and you've got low serum iron. And you might have low ferritin. But you've also got low transparent, which is the transporter. And it's like, well, how does that make sense when the body wants to find more iron if there's deficient and I wouldn't be making more transparent. And instead, it's making less, so it's not wanting to find out. And our conventional way of looking at that is, we know better than the body boarders pump you full of iron.

And then it's just like, it's just honestly madness, because then what happens is we don't have transparent air to bind to the end. And that's pretty important. We want it we want a lot of it to be bound. And we don't particularly want unbound Dine, at least not unbound to transfer and because it's then going to bind other things. So now we're taking an eye on something because it doctor told us to.

And we've got low amounts of transparent and we're taking huge bowls, amounts of iron in one go, which is really pretty well absorbed. So we're getting this huge influx, and then that it becomes not bound to transfer and we're not going to transfer inbound iron, we're now getting iron that's binding to other molecules. And that seems to become really unstable, like that essentially causes oxidative damage. And there's some studies now that are suggesting that there's probably a link to that that particular form of Unbound, transparent on to things like neurodegenerative conditions, inflammatory conditions.

And so the question now becomes a way actually potentially exacerbating or even essentially causing the onset of these conditions just by incorrectly taking United supplement? And I kind of think the answer is yes. And you know, ultimately, what we should be doing instead of just pumping someone full of iron is twofold, right?

So one, we should be looking at, well, what's causing this infection and this information? And that's a trickier question. It's much harder than just giving someone an answer. And so I get why we're not doing that. And then the other thing we can do, and again, this just like I don't even understand why we make these decisions sometimes.

But if you look at the studies on iron supplementation, and you look at lactoferrin. lactoferrin, is a protein that's found in like colostrum in in milk, basically, lactoferrin has a greater iron binding capacity than transparent does. It's not an iron, it doesn't contain iron. It's just helping us essentially bind to iron. And if you look at studies, comparing that with iron supplementation, in generally outperforms iron supplementation, so not only is it a solution to iron deficiency, and in fact, a lot of authors in these studies conclude it should be the first protocol of iron deficiency.

So not only is it a potential solution, but if we're then taking iron supplements, and this is unbound iron. Well, it makes sense to me that that lactoferrin could potentially mitigate some of that damage, because it's helping bind to it. So we're just like, we're just getting completely wrong, to be honest.

Michelle Shapiro 

Yeah, I feel exactly about iron as you do. And one of my closest friends is who on Instagram is the hormone healing or D she's kind of the hair mineral queen. And she's up she's the iron queen, too. But she also if I ever sent her, someone I'm like, Alright, Amanda, this time, I really think it's iron deficiency anemia, like look at their their hemoglobin hematocrit. 11, over like, 40. Like, I think so come on this time. It's really that she's like, You got to show me the vitamin A and Cirilo plasma. And she's like, I don't know, she's like, I don't know if if, again, what the bioavailable iron is, versus, or what your blood showing you have versus what's being stored.

And like you said, there is this is actually a mineral where I do have concerns about toxicity with supplementation. This is this and zinc are two that I'm very concerned with people just willy nilly kind of supplementing, because there is a really complex system and there is risk of toxicity.

So it's funny, because this is something that is so over prescribed, again, I'm sure this is very much the case in Australia, like you said, Where iron supplements iron supplements, and I think the question should be like you said, if your intake of meat is high, wonder if that's a true deficiency, or if it's that your body is showing you what's available, and you need to know how much you're storing, basically, because it's it's it's really important for that bigger picture.

So I would say if again, someone's prescribing an iron supplement, I would this is something I would actually take with caution. I would recommend to there are there are cases where a short term iron supplement might be justified like absolutely, but it's it's way over prescribed and recommended.

So just making sure and I think it's also because people will have really low energy and they'll go to the doctor and be like, is it your thyroid or your iron? And it's again that like prescriptive idea of tea or take this iron supplement. But there's so many iron amongst anything else has like the iron recycling system like there are so many mechanisms happening when you take that supplement that are not seen in lab work, so you'd have to ask for more in depth lab work I think before even knowing if that iron supplement is necessary for you, I'm So been recently and this is partly because of Amanda.

But I've been having clients give blood because of iron builds up, because that's been a huge concern for some of my clients too. Have you seen that at all? Where people's H and H or other measures of iron are too high?

Jake Doleschal 

Absolutely, yeah. I mean, it tends to be more common in men, at least in my experience, and especially we look like hemochromatosis Jane's much more common in men than women as well. And women obviously had this sort of natural bloodletting system anyway, like, usually once a month, they're going to lose some iron. So men don't have that. And if they do have hemochromatosis genes does just build up.

In fact, I looked at bloods only a few hours ago, and the ferritin was 780. Oh, my God work off 50 to 150 is my optimal values. And so that's pretty high. So definitely, and you know, one of the first things I would recommend in that situation is, is donate blood, give blood, like do this regularly, to actually offload some of this iron.

Michelle Shapiro 

And ferritin. Specifically, once you get into those numbers, I no longer use ferritin. As an iron measure, I'm using that as an inflammation measure. To me that's that's looking like something totally different. I'm not worried about deficiency at that point.

I'm worried that like you said, some of that iron overload is correlated with some sort of inflammatory status. I think that's how I would view it. And I'm sure again, when you saw that ferritin, you were like, Whoa, something's going on here. Because it is also a, you know,

Jake Doleschal 

I mean, that's a tricky thing. That's ferritin. Hey, like it's an acute stage reactance. So exactly, it goes up with inflammation. And that's the other issue as well as sometimes inflammation itself can just be masking what we're actually seeing from an ion panel. So we have to understand it's telling us two things.

But then sometimes we can also see all other inflammatory markers or fine ferric anti transparent situations, high sodium ions high. It's like, okay, I think you've got you've got hemochromatosis that you've got some issue here with with

Michelle Shapiro 

it. We got to offload that blood. Exactly. Got to offload that blood. Totally. Okay, we're gonna move on. That was a really hard one. Thank you for rolling with me on it.

 

Multivitamin Supplements from a Functional Perspective

Just multivitamins in general, as is something that you think people should take willy nilly. And do you think that should be more prescriptive in nature? Tell me what you think about multivitamins in general.

Jake Doleschal 

I don't have a hard line on multivitamins, it probably is a bit surprising. Maybe some people here actually do take a multi myself. It's not something I did for a long time. It's not necessarily something I do all the time. There you go. Okay. Interesting. It feels like I felt like I was coming out of the closet saying that, like a lot of people like you're doing to get loyalty. There's studies that show you can die earlier.

And it's like, well, yeah, I mean, that's I don't know if you know, the study I'm referring to is done in healthcare work is a very old study, and they have people who are taking Maltese, and the life expectancy was shorter, but it's like, what was the quality of that multivitamin? Like, this is just an observational study. There were healthcare workers. Do you think they're taking alternative forms of multivitamins? Like probably not, you know what I mean? So I think when it comes to Maltese, my biggest concern?

Well, I guess a couple of concerns. One is what form are they using, you know, most conventional multivitamins, he gets off the supermarket shelf. They're not using bioavailable forms, they're going to use check forms you're going to use synthetic forms are going to use piss poor B, vitamin forms, and you can't even absorb the using oxide forms of magnesium and zinc and, and they probably add iron to it as well.

And so now, I mean, like, you know, the magnesium oxide, what's the absorption that like 8%? Like, goodness, what are you going to get out of 8%? out of 30 milligrams of magnesium, nothing, you know, so most Maltese, show me a standard multi. So what's the point of taking that it's not doing anything good for you, it's probably causing harm. But if you can get a good multi that's probably dosed using proper forms. I think it's going to place I don't think everyone necessarily needs it.

But I think it's got a place like me, like I said, genetically, I've got some issues with B vitamins. And so I'm like, well, I could take a B complex, or I can just take a multi, it's got a good amount of magnesium glycinate in there, like, it's got a little bit of zinc, a bit of copper. I'll just take that.

So I think people could do a lot worse than a good multi. But I also don't think it's not, you know, it's not the solution to I've got low energy, let's go get a multi V. It's like, well, yeah, maybe you'll learn some of those nutrients. But it's really just a shotgun approach, isn't it?

Michelle Shapiro 

Yeah. And I think we're taking Multivitamins for the same reason for myself, I would have to eat a very well planned diet in America to get all the nutrients that I need, because it's we're depleted in our very soil and the meat we're consuming.

So it's always a catch up game, I think for all of us to get to not only adequate levels of certain vitamins but optimal. But what I would look at in multivitamins, like you said is I would not want one that had any iron in it. I would be looking to make sure the B vitamins are methylated. And I would make sure that the form of magnesium and I wouldn't want zinc too high either I would be concerned about that. Like maybe less than, like five or 10 per day.

 

Magnesium Supplements from a Functional Perspective

And I think that magnesium two, I'm looking for ones that are like glycinate, threonate. And we'll talk about magnesium or versus oxide. And I think if you're getting a brand new Trust, the good thing is, there's going to be a lot of consideration for these things already. So I think brand trust is important to also.

And those are some of the things I would look at for a multivitamin to take me to magnesium, which is my, you know, my favorite supplement ever and I don't have again, not because it's fixing anything but for me to have my like foundational errors in my life or sleep and stress. So magnesium is really supportive for both of those things.

So it's very mechanistically supportive for me Tell me about magnesium What what are you seeing people get wrong when they're buying it from the counter? What's the what's your concerns about magnesium and how do we optimize the supplements we're taking?

Jake Doleschal 

I mean, look, there's not many supplements that I would say anyone can just take like it you know, often people say like, I'll get questions and be like, hey, what a five supplements every single person should take and it's like well depends like for what purpose like who are you adding to it what you're doing but if I had to give an answer to to you know, handful supplements people 99% of people will benefit of taking magnesium is going to be one of those it's very uncommon downgraded protocol for someone and not include magnesium like I can't even think of the last time I did that.

So we just know and especially if people exercise and then to say that like if you look at studies on the amount of magnesium loss in just one training bout one exercise badly he lose us DAC of magnesium. So for the people that I'm working with, I'm trying to get them to exercise as well. It's like, well, you definitely need to be taking magnesium. But like you said, quality form, you know, magnesium oxide, eight to 12% bioavailable, what are you going to get absorb? Or what are you gonna get out of that? You know, there's so much when it comes to supplement companies, there's so much that they do it cheap companies, or dodgy companies just like save a bit of money.

And it's, it's not overly fair to consumer, right? Like, if you're consuming you go and you're like, Oh, I just heard this cool podcast, Michelle said magnesium is amazing. And so they go to the shop and they get a magnesium on the shelf. It's like, four times out of five is going to be mag oxide. And if it's not, you look in the back and it's gonna say, Make me on the front of the labels can be like magnesium 500 milligrams, and you're like, great. That's how much I said I should take we can I'll take 500 milligrams one tablet, you take one tablet, I had this conversation all the time.

And I'm like, Sorry to burst your bubble, but you're not taking 500 milligrams mag like yeah, I'm it says it's like, yeah, yeah, have a look at the back. It will be like 500 milligrams per serving. One serving is 10 tablets or five tablets. It's like you're taking one tablet, you're getting like 50 to 100 milligrams mag in it's just so dishonest. So this is the danger people run into his supplementation is they they get poor forms. They're way under dosing. And they just order taking stuff they don't need, you know, like it's just a mindful macam supplementation. So I don't know about you with magnesium, but for me with mag, the way I would dose it, and I work in kilos equally work in pounds.

But I would say, based on bodyweight I quite high, I'd say like 10 kilos of bodyweight, I'm going to be using at least 50 milligrams of mag. So you get an average. Like, let's I mean, though, the only pounds I know, the top, my head would be 100 kilos, 220 pounds, only about 100 kilos, right? So for me, I would take the minimum 500 milligrams a mag, right. And if someone's got a severe deficiency, I'm gonna probably double that like at least 1000 milligrams or someone my size. Whereas you go look at my supplements and be like, well, standard servings, 100 milligrams or 150 milligrams like well, what's that really going to do?

And we like, it's going to, it's going to help a little bit look at what mechanisms need magnesium or basically every single metabolic process in the body needs magnesium, glucose regulation needs magnesium. You have someone with metabolic issues and someone who's diabetic and somebody says SENCO, fatty liver, anything like that, okay, tech, a couple 100 milligrams a mag is still going to get benefit. But how much more benefit we're going to get if you actually take how much we need, you know, yeah, this

Michelle Shapiro 

is magnesium such an interesting one. And first of all, just to lay out on the very high level, I'm extremely against oxide to citrate, generally people use for bowel movements, and then people will use glycinate or three and eight for stress reduction or sleep.

Magnesium is amazing and that it's involved in all these enzymatic reactions, like it's so essential for basically every single process that happens inside of our bodies. It's so interesting because when I have clients who are using it for sleep, I'll often find that that even if at 125 milligrams to start with, some of them get like to almost hung over the next day. And part of it is just like, um, like your body's not used to being in the parasympathetic state.

They get like this hangover, even from a small amount of magnesium and i i I don't remember the last time, I have not at some point in a client journey introduced magnesium like I think it is essential and very depleted in our soil. So it's completely completely essential for most people to supplement like you said, even sometimes for life.

But it's very interesting to see that some people get this like magnesium hangover because, again, their bodies like adjusting to relaxing for the first time, which is so wild. Have you seen that before the magnesium hangover?

Jake Doleschal 

I've seen it a handful of times, not a whole lot, but it is something you can see, my experience has been any nutrient really, that someone's like deficient enough in tend to have some of those effects when you start supplementing with it. So you know, I've seen that with B vitamins, especially methylated. B vitamins, if someone's really quite deficient, they got, you know, methyl cofactor issues or whatever.

And you start using an active form of B vitamins that can this ramping up and histamine symptoms and like cognitive symptoms, it's like, well, that's not a sign that you don't need that that's a sign that you actually really is actually coming online again. So that's how I feel with magnesium. Yeah, the

 

B-Vitamin Supplements from a Functional Perspective

Michelle Shapiro 

beat so I have a long history because of my vegan diet for over 10 years of vitamin B 12 deficiency that is substantial, like my lowest numbers were in the one hundreds, like, those are some of the lowest I've seen for people, which I tell my clients. Yeah, I'm like, I know, I tell my clients, I'm like, if you're like in the less than 200, we're talking about neurological issues at this point, like we're talking about, like really serious stuff.

Because the deficiency rate in the United States, the cutoff is under 200. I'm like, you could be having neurological issues under 300. So like, that's that the deficiency level is way too low for vitamin B 12. So I also do a bunch of IVs and injections for B 12. Because it's like, it's such a catch up game for me, because my stores are so empty to let's talk about vitamin B 12.

For a second is this another supplement where you say a lot of people, much like magnesium can benefit from vitamin D supplementation is this something where you're nervous about toxicity, take us through your B, vitamin Schpeel,

Jake Doleschal 

I do start to feel like over the last few years, I felt a little bit more. I kind of feel like a lot of people should be taking B vitamins. And I didn't used to feel that way. But especially after just looking at more and more lab work. Like he said, You just see not only either c b 12, low serum B 12. Low, or you see issues with MCV. And it's 50% of the time, I'll see people who seem to have some kind of functional B 12 B nine issue.

And again, you know, like you said Our food is depleted B 12 doesn't even exist in plants. And even you know, animal meat tends to have lower levels of B 12. Like it's something that we're just not getting huge amounts of in our diet. And I would sort of talk about like, B 12. Yes, it's it's probably a little bit unique in that aspect of B six, B nine, B 12. I sort of look at these guys all together. And it's one of those like that that sort of complex using these guys all together. I think most people really going to benefit from this. Like, again, if we look at well, what what are these things helping with? Well, detoxification like liver detox, how important Bs is cofactors with liver detox, right.

You know, you mentioned how will you be 12 Was you mentioned some of the neurological concerns there? Well, what about GABA? Like, we need B 12 to produce GABA, and you know how many vegans you get. And I've got nothing against vegans. I was vegetarian for 10 years, but how many vegans you get coming to you who are like wired at night, they can't sleep, they're not getting deep sleep, they're just anxious in the evening. And it's like, you know, you've you've got to GABA deficiency, like you're so low in B 12. This is going to be having an effect.

And you know, what else helps us with GABA targeting? Where you're getting your taurine your diet, like you're not? So I do think that based on our diets, if diet was perfect, does someone need to be twice? I won't probably not. But based on the modern diet, I think most people are going to benefit from B vitamin B complex supplement. And like I said, That's partly why I take a multivitamin. And not only you know I mentioned will be 12 When you're getting this amazing animal products.

And you know a lot of the time when I look at bloodwork, I like to play the game of let me look at the bloodwork first. And I'll try to guess what symptoms or you know, whatever you want to describe, it's fine, it's fine, it's totally fine. And you look at it and you're like, oh, this person is vegan, like this is true options. In my mind here, this person is either vegan, or they've got like IBD or something that's really affecting absorption.

And sometimes not like usually that's gonna be the case, but sometimes I'll then look at the form and they won't have ticked me in and I'm like, oh, that shocked me. And then I go down to the food log and like you know, a Monday don't eat any meat choose. I don't eat any meat Wednesday I'll have one meal that has made it and it's like, that's what people think is normal now like that. Like how much are we going to be able to satisfy nutrient requirements? If we're having one meal every couple of days, you know, people like oh, you know, cut out meat to save the planet. I just eat meat twice a week. It's a great week.

And talking about that that's a whole other conversation. But you realize that that 100 grams of minced meat, you're having a gram, but you're having once or twice a week, it's just not going to cut it. Unless maybe if it was like 100 grams of liver, okay, maybe in that situation, you might be getting enough, but that's really the only one. So based on, I guess, just adequacy of diet, I do think B vitamins, generally, a lot of people are going to benefit from taking,

Michelle Shapiro 

I completely agree with you. And it's also a lot of B vitamins I think of as being a huge catch up game again, because you don't see that your stores are being depleted during that time, like by the time your blood labs are representing B 12 deficiency, you've probably been deficient for a very long time in your stores, because it's not going to show up there. So I definitely agree. And I will say that the interesting thing about magnesium and b 12, is that these are really all B vitamins is that, like you said, they're related to detoxification.

And from a mechanism level, we deplete these things in times of stress, we deplete V vitamins, and we deplete magnesium in times of stress. So, again, we have like you said, this very incongruent environment where we're not really supposed to be as stressed as we are. So our demand for these vitamins and minerals is very high. And at the same time, our supply is very low.

So it's just it's you're you're kind of always playing catch up when it comes to in my head, B vitamins and magnesium and some cases, vitamin D. K, you know, I think there's a big catch up game where you have to compensate often, you know, even if it's not for life, once a year, I have to do some sort of a gut protocol for myself, and I have to do some sort of IVs or injections for B 12. Because I just no matter what it's very hard to catch up with the amount of stress we have, and you know, the amount of pollutants and things we have to and especially you'll feel this is just a personal anecdote to my not only has my B 12.

That abysmal, I recently got my b1 taken my thiamin, which you only look at, really, for people who are like alcoholics, that's the only time that that's going to be really depleted, and mine was non recognizable in my labs, like it just wasn't there at all. And so in my head instead of me saying, Oh, what am I missing that in my diet, I was saying, holy crap, my liver must have been going through it this year, because I had a mold toxicity issue.

And I was like, wow, so again, I'm looking at the mechanism for that and understanding that we need these nutrients for liver detoxification, we need these nutrients for our HPA axis, and we deplete them in times of stress. So we have to think about not only how these are representing our blood, but how they're representative in our environment and whole and how we're interacting with our environment, too.

I think that's very true for B vitamins for people, okay, I have two more supplements, and I can't I know we're running, we're running way freakin over and I'm not going to steal your time anymore, because it's the middle of the night there. 1015 Oh, my gosh.

 

Glutathione Supplements from a Functional Perspective

This is going to be a bigger kind of you do not have to go into super detail because it's very complicated. But glutathione is something that has now become popularized. We see it in different forms. I you know, I get a nice push in my IV people get it, you know, through liposomal forms, non liposomal forms.

Tell me why you feel is good to find on one of the supplements that again, everyone should be taking there should be caution when taking, is it overhyped? Or is it just hyped enough? What do you think about glutathione?

Jake Doleschal 

Yeah, so I tend to you as well, let's take a step back quickly. So yeah, master antioxidant. I mean, arguably, maybe this many oxygen isn't as important more important, but either way, like you said people notice is really important antioxidant the body, do native foods and liver function, obviously. And even if we look at stuff like aging, well, and age related illnesses, like glutathione is very important, for sure. But we didn't understand our bodies making glutathione we're making it out of amino acids.

So if we've got an issue with these amino acids, in particular methionine and cysteine, well, we're probably not going to be making a lot of or adequate amounts of glutathione. So first of all, you have to look at well, are we actually making enough and not only do we first need to have enough building blocks suit with tiny web sulfur based amino acids, basically, but then we need to look at the whole homocysteine cycle, and we converting that process well, and that requires B vitamins.

So again, we've gotten to that issue if we got a vitamin issues. And then hopefully, we've now hopefully, that up until this point is working well. Now we've got cysteine. And now we can convert cysteine and glutamine and glutamic acid, we can actually make glutathione. So even before we get to the point of having glutathione there's a lot of things that can go wrong there. So firstly, we're going to make sure that's covered.

And again, you get someone who's who's really low protein diet, they've got issues with solfa, whatever's going on, we're going to have B vitamin issues, whatever, we're going to have issues there. Maybe they're taking, I don't know maybe the thing excessive amounts of B vitamins, excessive amounts of B nine that could be causing some issues right? squashing the homocysteine, so we need to make sure that that up until that point is covered. Then we look at the glutathione and we're like okay, cool. We've got all the time.

Again, same question, any nutrient and antioxidant, whatever. Are we creating an Have we depleted? If we look a good example, okay, we've we've depleted our glutathione. Well, what's the plating glutathione? Like, yes, toxins, but especially like endotoxins bacterial toxins were exposed to, we're really lucky, we've got a mark on on a blood test where we can start to get an indication of glutathione status, we can look at GGT and liver panel.

And that's going to tell us pretty well, how much good of fun we're dragging down. And something that I see. And I just want to acknowledge that I haven't actually seen this in literature, and I'm just waiting for the day that this comes out. But in my clients time and time and time again, when I've got kinds of bacterial issues, in particular negative gram bacteria, overgrowth, usually things like SIBO, what I tend to see is GGT low.

And so when I'm seeing GGT, low, I'm starting to think myself have we like, have we depleted these building blocks, and we've got an issue here with sulfur metabolism, like what's going on here. But these are the clients, which it's funny because we look in the literature, it's like, well, we know that yeast is going to be causing issues there. Like you'd think yeast is probably going to be the thing that's gonna have a big impact on GTT.

But anecdotally, I'm just seeing native grand MACURA do this. So their clients, I see that see GGT is low, they've got these IBS symptoms, SIBO symptoms, and I think you know, that the client is going to really benefit from glutathione supplementation or, or NSC or cysteine supplementation or whatever. also acknowledging there can be a whole load genetic factors, again, people can be under producing glutathione, just due to genetic snips like they can be really unlucky in what they've inherited.

So there can be environmental things that can be genetic things that can be diet, things, nutritional things that can lead to a state of high glutathione need. So do I think a lot of people will benefit from glutathione? Absolutely. Do I think, like, do I take it? I don't know. I don't think I need it. But if I was, I don't know, if I was experiencing digestive symptoms without a yeast overgrowth and bacterial overgrowth, and I was under like, a whole lot of oxidative stress or whatever, then yeah, I think that'd be a wonderful thing to do get an IV? Absolutely. I'm not opposed to that.

Again, supplementation, quality matters, right? We're looking like someone might say, Hey, I've heard good stuff back with a final go by the first glutathione or C, and you get a good, fine, it's just gonna be reduced glutathione. All that is, is those amino acids that is totally about in a pill. And it's like, well, what's gonna happen? It's not swallowing amino acid, you just gonna digest it? Yeah. So, okay, all well and good, you're gonna have the building blocks, but it's not like you're going to take a goodest iron supplement and suddenly have cellular levels of glutathione go up, like, it's not gonna work like that.

And we assume it does, because it's called glutathione. It's amazing what is be called amino acid blend, you know, like, it's not actually good fun. So liposomal glutathione. That is one that I do use sometimes in that situation, I think someone's really going to benefit from it. But it's honestly like, it's, I don't even want to call it a band aid. Like, it's usually it's a support. It's a crutch. Yeah, they've got something which is quite clear. Yeah. They've got some liver burden. Exactly.

And so that's not a bad thing. Like I think, sometimes the issue with with functional medicine, is we start saying, unless it fixes the mechanism is wrong. And so no, no, hang on, we still don't want something to be symptomatic. Like, we want someone to still have a high quality of life. That's okay. Initially, for me to get that person feeling better. But we also need to be doing that stuff, too.

Michelle Shapiro 

I always tell that to clients, too. I'm like, just because I'm talking to you about how we're going to work at the root cause in the long term, we're not gonna have you suffer in the short term. Like, that's not the goal. There's also some supplements. And it's important to say, like, there's some supplements that work in the short term on symptom like a supplement like a GI revive or something, even though again, it's working on leaky gut and long term in the short term, people can be going to the bathroom more regularly, I'm like, we don't have to wait to treat the long term buy and ignore the short term, essentially, I think glutathione.

And a lot of these supplements, what I just want to caution people with too is that if you're giving your body something that is going to give your immune system and your gut the boost, it needs to start a fight. Just make sure that you have everything in order. So what I mean by that is, a lot of times people are taking like mass amounts of antioxidants or taking glutathione. Because let's say they have like a mold issue. The problem is like once your body starts that fight, you might feel worse at first.

And we think of this as being like the Herxheimer reaction or something like that. But making sure again, that you're if you're not ready to pick a fight with the bad gut bugs or you know, mold or something like that. Just make sure that you're not boosting your body's ability to fight before you have your foundations settled. And I think that I see that so much with like, people just start a mold protocol.

And I'm like, Whoa, mold is like really tough to beat and it's really sticky and you have to be careful because if you don't target first, even something like parasites again, you have to make sure your foundations are settled before you start killing a bunch of parasites. Make sure your body can get rid of them. Your drainage pathways are open. You know, and I think that's I see people with glutathione. Specifically, they get sicker when they start taking it. And I'm like, maybe it's not the time to be sicker, you know.

So just being careful again, with those high antioxidant supplements and everything, too. And just making sure again, you have your foundation ready, before you pick a fight with some bad bugs inside. I think that's important for people to Okay, I have used more. I've overstayed my Jake, welcome. I cannot thank you, this is already going to be my favorite episode of season two, it's hurtful to the other guests. But I do mean it. And I'm not apologizing for that.

Jake, I'm so grateful you came on so that you are a wealth, a wealth of knowledge and humor and fun. Tell me where can people find you? And how can people work with you? I know, of course, you have offered opportunities for individuals looking for health changes, and practitioners. So tell us everything and we're gonna of course link to everything in the show notes with your amazingness

Jake Doleschal 

Sure, thank you, Michelle. It's been an absolute blast love having these conversations. And you know, speaking with people where we're seeing eye to eye and sort of on the same mission, so absolute pleasure. All my stuff at the moment is on social media like that is the one place I hang out Instagram at the moment or Twitter, I don't actually know what my Twitter handle is, but Instagram and be more active.

That is where I am all the info and what I do how to work with me is there. Like I said before, I sort of split my time in two I mentor people and that includes sort of that educational content. And I work with people on a one on one sort of way at the moment. That's mostly consultations, where I'll do like a 12 week kind of protocol for them. But all my info is there.

And I post a lot I do Q and A's, if people have questions is I do at least one or two Q and A's a week on Instagram. So shoot me a question now, hopefully answer as many as possible. But I just love engaging with people and sharing some educational content.

Michelle Shapiro 

It's beautiful. Thank you. And I you will definitely if you follow me see Jake's content because I'm reposting it. So constantly, and then you give it you give a little thumbs up or something. I'm like, you don't have to do it every time Jake. I repost your stuff, like at least twice a week at this point, like, my page is just a landing page for Jake's content. Like it's so good. Thank you so much. I definitely want to have you back on we can go deeper into blood chemistry in the future. And also check out your podcasts. Tell them about your podcast, too. Yes, yeah. So

Jake Doleschal 

first, I'd love to come back and talk about blood cam. It is a huge passion of mine. So absolutely, anytime. Yes, I do have a podcast with my colleague, David Gray, and it's called a gut feeling. And basically just talk about whatever you want to talk about.

So usually it's something we're going to bring it back to the gut somehow but usually some kind of a lot of the time what we do is we'll talk about a condition and how we think maybe the conventional system has kind of missed the boat a little bit and then we talked about alternatively what could be going on from a gap perspective. But yeah, please check it out and leave us review if you like it. If you don't like it you don't need live review that's fine.

Michelle Shapiro 

Actually don't leave a review if you don't like it and thank you. Thank you so much Jake and I think

Michelle Shapiro 

thank you so much for tuning in to the quiet the diet podcast. If you found any of this information relevant or you related to it, please feel free to share the podcast it would mean the world to us. Also remember to subscribe so you don't miss any episodes. And you can follow us on Instagram at quiet the diet pod. We'll put the link in the show notes after each episode. Thank you again for listening and I can't wait to see you in the next episode.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai